Why was Enterprise received so poorly?

[JonnyQuest037]

ENT used the TNG formula that was stale by the end of VOY’s run

Let's be real. The TNG formula was stale by the end of TNG.

ENT only became more serialized like DS9 when the writer of DS9, Ira Steven Behr, made his thoughts on ENT known to Braga ahead of S3: “the show was a POS”.

I haven't heard about Ira Steven Behr giving feedback on ENT before. When was this revealed?

Having lyrics in the theme song like it was originally intended by TOS.

The TOS theme was NOT intended to have lyrics. Roddenberry exercised a clause in his contract that allowed him to write lyrics for the theme just so he could get 50% of the royalties, thus screwing composer Alexander Courage out of half of his money. IIRC, he did this years after the fact when TOS was off the air.

Invisibility of LGBT individuals. Except it was the early ‘00s, not the late ‘60s.

Honestly, Trek has been falling down on LGBTQ representation since the late 80s. There should've been a gay character in the TNG crew, on a recurring basis at the very least. By the time they got to ENT and it was no longer a novelty for a show to have an LGBTQ character, it was just sad. But that was mostly about Rick Berman's prejudices, from what I understand.

The show introduced this Temporal Cold War arc, but never involve any of the TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY characters - even though there were ideas for S2 for Picard, Seven of Nine and Guinan to appear in a Suliban story - despite the fact that it could have brought in ratings.

I've never heard this before, either. What's the source on this?

There's this really difficult drinking game you can play with the sitcom Friends called "Spot the African American".

Hey, there's Aisha Tyler! And it only took nine seasons!

...Wait, is that it? Am I done already? Wow, that was fast.

Star Trek was always conceived to celebrate diversity, which was alien and groundbreaking in the 60s.

According to Bob Justman and Herb Solow's Inside Star Trek: The Real Story, this was more due to NBC than Roddenberry. The cast of "The Cage" is lily white. A big part of the reason people like Lloyd Haynes, Nichelle Nichols, and George Takei were added to the cast after Star Trek went to series was because NBC wanted more minority representation in its shows.

And therein lies the inherent flaw of the 'prequel': The fanbase is going to have their own preconceived notion of what the prequel is going to be about, and it will never live up to what they formed in their minds.

Exactly. There is nothing more binding in a fan's mind than their own headcanon. And when they've had three decades to build it up in their minds, it's a huge uphill battle. The same thing happened with Star Wars.

That's why Better Call Saul is the best prequel ever. It was done right after Breaking Bad, by most of the same creative team. And they really took pains to not contradict Breaking Bad. I just watched a video the other day that said one BCS staffer rewatched BB every year just to have it all fresh in her mind before they started a new season of BCS. I doubt there was anyone on the ENT staff who was doing that with TOS.

What reason does a TOS prequel need with having episodes about the Ferengi and Borg except for it's two main writers refusing to do homework?

I don't think it was a case of Brannon and Braga refusing to do their homework. They knew the Borg and the Ferengi didn't belong in the 22nd Century, which is why they took pains to explain it away in those episodes. (I'm not saying that they were successful in doing that, but at least they tried.) The thinking was to incorporate elements from TNG, the most successful version of Trek up until that point.

 

[HotRod]

You know why I dropped creative writing? Because very early on, I was made aware that there were no opportunities for people with my immutable characteristics in the industry. It did not matter how good I was. What mattered was that, I am; Straight, White and Male.

 

[Anna Yolei]

Let's be real. The TNG formula was stale by the end of TNG.

I'm glad someone said it. I feel like I've been gaslighted this season with all the fans clamoring that "TREK IS BACK" when PIC went full TNG S8, but that's a rant for a different forum entirely.

According to Bob Justman and Herb Solow's Inside Star Trek: The Real Story, this was more due to NBC than Roddenberry. The cast of "The Cage" is lily white. A big part of the reason people like Lloyd Haynes, Nichelle Nichols, and George Takei were added to the cast after Star Trek went to series was because NBC wanted more minority representation in its shows.

I am extremely surprised that a studio in 1966 would give two shakes of a lamb's tail about diversifying to anyone that wasn't white, TBH.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I am extremely surprised that a studio in 1966 would give two shakes of a lamb's tail about diversifying to anyone that wasn't white, TBH.

You'd be surprised. Honestly, in terms of diversity and representation, TOS was behind the curve compared to its contemporaries.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I am extremely surprised that a studio in 1966 would give two shakes of a lamb's tail about diversifying to anyone that wasn't white, TBH.

Inside Star Trek: The Real Story publishes several memos from NBC that show it was a priority for them. That's why we got the sitcom Julia, starring Diahann Carroll in a non-stereotypical role, in 1968.

You'd be surprised. Honestly, in terms of diversity and representation, TOS was behind the curve compared to its contemporaries.

Yep. NBC's I Spy had been presenting Robert Culp and Bill Cosby as equal partners and co-stars since 1965. The Man From U.N.C.L.E. presented a heroic Russian character in 1964, three years before Chekov was even thought of.

More information on NBC's efforts in this direction is over at FactTrek.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

It did not matter how good I was. What mattered was that, I am; Straight, White and Male.

 

[Ragitsu]

Latino means Native American (Native South American?) + Spanish.

(Hispanic means that someone speaks Spanish, but you probably know that. Brazilians speak Portuguese, so they are Latino but not Hispanic.)

How "white" are Spaniards?

As white as some one from Ireland apparently.

So Latinos are White.

A T guy referred to himself as "spicy white".

 

[Guy Gardener]

A T guy referred to himself as "spicy white".

Hank Azaria curled all his "RRRRs" when he said in The Bird Cage "You Cannot Rrrrrrresist my Latino heat"

Not Latin.
Not gay.
Not Native.
Not Indian.

Google says that he is Greek and Jewish.

 

[FederationHistorian]

I haven't heard about Ira Steven Behr giving feedback on ENT before. When was this revealed?

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I've never heard this before, either. What's the source on this?

There were plans for Guinan to appear in S5. And browsing very old TrekBBS posts, Guinan’s potential appearance in a fifth season of ENT was definitely was on Memory Alpha back then, before it got scrubbed from MA for some reason.

The Picard and Seven of Nine rumors might have been because they were filming Nemesis around the same time as S1 of ENT. Seven was wanted to appear in NEM in a cameo, at the wedding of Riker and Troi. If they could have got her for NEM, they might have been able to work in an ENT appearance.

Plus, John Fleck (Silik) questioned why his character could not turn into Seven of Nine to mess with people’s minds in Star Trek Monthly in November 2003, a month before NEM. The idea of Seven on Nine being on ENT was floating around.

The Picard rumor may have been when they were considering having all the captains teaming up in the Star Trek version of the Justice League against all the major Star Trek villains across time, including Silik. And he would have had to retrieve Archer somehow. If Star Trek XI was released in 2004, then it would have had to have been filmed in ’03 sometime – either the second half of S2 or first half of S3.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

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Thanks for sharing that. I didn't know about Behr. Interesting.

 

[Dukhat]

Plus, John Fleck (Silik) questioned why his character could not turn into Seven of Nine to mess with people’s minds in Star Trek Monthly in November 2003, a month before NEM. The idea of Seven on Nine being on ENT was floating around.

He was obviously making a joke. Why would Silik turn into a person who wouldn't exist for 200 years?

 

[fireproof78]

I'm glad someone said it. I feel like I've been gaslighted this season with all the fans clamoring that "TREK IS BACK" when PIC went full TNG S8, but that's a rant for a different forum entirely.

Please tell me when. I have popcorn that I'll need to pop but I await it with great interest.

 

[FederationHistorian]

He was obviously making a joke. Why would Silik turn into a person who wouldn't exist for 200 years?

Um, because Future Guy tells him to?

 

[Dukhat]

Um, because Future Guy tells him to?

That’s not a good enough reason.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

That’s not a good enough reason.

You're not going to get a good reason... you know that, right?

 

[FederationHistorian]

That’s not a good enough reason.

Like Silik using Seven’s image to lure Braxton or Ducane to the 22nd century to capture them and extract knowledge would be a better reason. Even though Silik could try that literally anywhere in the timeline.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That’s not a good enough reason.

We think of the Suliban as good soldiers, but what if they were quietly trying to figure everything out, so that they could set up shop themselves with time heists and their own front in the temporal cold War if necessary?

Not Starscream, but Radar when Potter gets lost riding his horse. Someone capable that can fill in a vacuum.

As soon as it is not an afront or a betrayal, and they were sure they understood the technology they were stealing, because they did build future guys temporal chamber for future guy, the Suliban would have started manipulating their own past to win everything too.

 

[caveat_imperator]

Honestly, Trek has been falling down on LGBTQ representation since the late 80s. There should've been a gay character in the TNG crew, on a recurring basis at the very least. By the time they got to ENT and it was no longer a novelty for a show to have an LGBTQ character, it was just sad. But that was mostly about Rick Berman's prejudices, from what I understand.

From what I remember reading on his facebook, David Gerrold was going to bring in gay characters into the show, but Roddenberry's then lawyer (an extremely bigoted individual who kept sticking his nose in TNG's pre-production where it wasn't wanted) drove him any pretty much everyone else who had worked on TOS away from TNG before anything was even filmed.

 

[Dukhat]

Like Silik using Seven’s image to lure Braxton or Ducane to the 22nd century to capture them and extract knowledge would be a better reason. Even though Silik could try that literally anywhere in the timeline.

What does any of that have to do with ENT?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

From what I remember reading on his facebook, David Gerrold was going to bring in gay characters into the show, but Roddenberry's then lawyer (an extremely bigoted individual who kept sticking his nose in TNG's pre-production where it wasn't wanted) drove him any pretty much everyone else who had worked on TOS away from TNG before anything was even filmed.

Yes. I don't know if Gerrold, Dorothy Fontana, Bob Justman, and all the other TOS vets who initially joined TNG had left before the show started filming, but that's more or less correct. I'd recommend watching William Shatner's documentary Chaos on the Bridge if you haven't already. It does a good job of detailing just what a shit show the early behind the scenes production of TNG was.