Why was Data never promoted?
- Thread starter alpha_leonis
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Oh. That's a much harder question. There is a whole thread on that one.
Link me please!!!Oh. That's a much harder question. There is a whole thread on that one.
A whole thread on a moot issue? Of course Chewie got a medal. And then another. And then another. After they had lost six medals and two searchers into all that hair, Mon Mothma just gave up and had a decorative notch carved in his crossbow-blaster.
Data is never called Chief anything. But supposedly the distinction is a practical necessity in all the shows: Spock wasn't the only officer doing science for Kirk, even if the terminology of Chief Science Officer was only formally introduced in VOY. We just don't hear full titles all that often, because the practical necessity only comes in at a certain level of bureaucracy, and our top heroes can go light on bureaucracy.
Timo Saloniemi
Data is never called Chief anything. But supposedly the distinction is a practical necessity in all the shows: Spock wasn't the only officer doing science for Kirk, even if the terminology of Chief Science Officer was only formally introduced in VOY. We just don't hear full titles all that often, because the practical necessity only comes in at a certain level of bureaucracy, and our top heroes can go light on bureaucracy.
Timo Saloniemi
It gets weirder.
It appears that Operations as a department includes three sub-specialties. One of those, confusingly, is also called Operations. The other two are Security/Tactical and Engineering.
When Data was believed to have died, Worf took over at OPS and Troi called it the second time he'd been promoted due to the death of a friend. That lend credence to the idea that Data was actually Worf's boss.
As i have said in another thread, this also explains some of the weirdness on Voyager: Tuvok is the most senior in the Operations Department, but due to his experience and expertise he runs Security/Tactical and leaves OPS to a subordinate.
Of course this raises as many questions as it andwers. Like why did Worf move to OPS instead of Geordi.
And while we're at it, is Doctor Crusher subordinate to the Chief Science Officer (technically) or the other way around.
I, too, always assumed that Data was a redshirt Command guy wearing gold because of his current post, but I hadn't really thought about what that means about Geordi or Worf or why people wear gold.
It appears that Operations as a department includes three sub-specialties. One of those, confusingly, is also called Operations. The other two are Security/Tactical and Engineering.
When Data was believed to have died, Worf took over at OPS and Troi called it the second time he'd been promoted due to the death of a friend. That lend credence to the idea that Data was actually Worf's boss.
As i have said in another thread, this also explains some of the weirdness on Voyager: Tuvok is the most senior in the Operations Department, but due to his experience and expertise he runs Security/Tactical and leaves OPS to a subordinate.
Of course this raises as many questions as it andwers. Like why did Worf move to OPS instead of Geordi.
And while we're at it, is Doctor Crusher subordinate to the Chief Science Officer (technically) or the other way around.
I, too, always assumed that Data was a redshirt Command guy wearing gold because of his current post, but I hadn't really thought about what that means about Geordi or Worf or why people wear gold.
TMP grouped them as: Engineering and Maintenance, Communications (which also includes Navigation/Sensors and Weapons) and Security and Services (including security guards, logistics/supply and administration).
Onscreen sources in turn never even confirm that the colors would signify departments at all. Might be duty shifts for all we know, with Kirk preferring the Gold Shift for his daytime adventures but including specialists from the Red Shift as events warrant, and Spock commanding the Blue Shift but also always partaking in main action.
Or then it means that TOS Gold gives the full Line Officer clearance, TOS Blue is Staff Officer with all sorts of limitations, and TOS Red sits somewhere in between, perhaps mainly applying to specialists who won't get to command much even if they might be entitled to. There would then be some outliers, with Spock being entitled to Gold (as in "Where No Man") but favoring the Blue of his "second profession", the one where he gets to temp after "Where No Man" results in casualties and reshuffling.
Hard to see why this should be. Based on the evidence, that is.
So, Worf took over from Tasha Yar, too. It didn't appear as if Yar had been his boss, or that this would in some way be a requirement for taking over a position. People just get reshuffled. And perhaps department heads get reshuffled before underlings get promoted to bosses?
Or then the two are completely separate departments, of which the ship has, what, eleven per dialogue? We don't want to limit the number of departments, we want as many of them as we can, to match that dialogue.
Because nobody could temp LaForge at Engineering, certainly not Worf?
Worf sort of started out as the generic deckhand, the do-all of junior bridge officers. Might be he is good at nothing, might be he is a narrow-ranged specialist in Security or Tactical but middling at everything else.
Might again be completely separate departments. Kirk's first department head meeting featured two separate blueshirts, apparently Sulu for physical sciences and Piper for medical sciences.
Timo Saloniemi
Or then it means that TOS Gold gives the full Line Officer clearance, TOS Blue is Staff Officer with all sorts of limitations, and TOS Red sits somewhere in between, perhaps mainly applying to specialists who won't get to command much even if they might be entitled to. There would then be some outliers, with Spock being entitled to Gold (as in "Where No Man") but favoring the Blue of his "second profession", the one where he gets to temp after "Where No Man" results in casualties and reshuffling.
Hard to see why this should be. Based on the evidence, that is.
So, Worf took over from Tasha Yar, too. It didn't appear as if Yar had been his boss, or that this would in some way be a requirement for taking over a position. People just get reshuffled. And perhaps department heads get reshuffled before underlings get promoted to bosses?
Or then the two are completely separate departments, of which the ship has, what, eleven per dialogue? We don't want to limit the number of departments, we want as many of them as we can, to match that dialogue.
Because nobody could temp LaForge at Engineering, certainly not Worf?
Worf sort of started out as the generic deckhand, the do-all of junior bridge officers. Might be he is good at nothing, might be he is a narrow-ranged specialist in Security or Tactical but middling at everything else.
Might again be completely separate departments. Kirk's first department head meeting featured two separate blueshirts, apparently Sulu for physical sciences and Piper for medical sciences.
Timo Saloniemi
What? Is there any indication of Data's rank before Farpoint mission?
Oh and about those earlier comparisons to Geordi and Worf, I don't think they're really good examples. It is probably way easier to get promoted to lt. Commander than from Lt. Commander. It's like an RPG, the higher level you are, more XP you need for the next level, so the early levels go faster.
Based on Data's dialogue from Datalore, it would seem that he was promoted to LT CMDR c 2360:
LORE: Promises he later proved to be true. Which made you and me possible, brother. Our beloved father. Will I soon have a uniform like that, brother?
DATA: If you get one the way I did, Lore, it will mean four years at the Academy, another three as ensign, ten or twelve on varied space duty in the lieutenant grades.
Some background or non-canon sources favour the idea that he was a Science Officer or Records Officer up to that point after than being assigned to Operations as Second Officer & Operations Manager of the Enterprise-D but as far as I know, his earlier assignments have never been detailed.
LORE: Promises he later proved to be true. Which made you and me possible, brother. Our beloved father. Will I soon have a uniform like that, brother?
DATA: If you get one the way I did, Lore, it will mean four years at the Academy, another three as ensign, ten or twelve on varied space duty in the lieutenant grades.
Some background or non-canon sources favour the idea that he was a Science Officer or Records Officer up to that point after than being assigned to Operations as Second Officer & Operations Manager of the Enterprise-D but as far as I know, his earlier assignments have never been detailed.
Data could have been averaging those numbers using historical SFA data.
Data himself could have taken longer if they held his status as an android against him, or he could have risen more quickly based on his level of intelligence.
Yep, that is hardly conclusive.
It's certainly possible. The Datalore dialogue suggests that Lore could get a "uniform like yours" (Lt Cmdr in Operations) after seventeen to nineteen years. However, depending on whether you use his service record prepared for EaF (and included in the novelisation) or the amended one for Conundrum (arguably more 'canon' as is as intended to be seen on screen), Data is only confirmed as holding the rank of Lieutenant Commander after twenty to twenty-three years (he either entered the Academy in '41 or '44), being promoted to that rank when he transfered to the E-D. However, it's also possible that he was promoted to LT CMDR c. 2360 or 2361 as suggested by Datalore. It's also worth noting that several of his peers appear to have been promoted far quicker (LaForge made LT CMDR in about twelve years, Riker made it in eight (and was offered a CO's billet at around the same time), Worf did it in fourteen years, Ben Sisko in ten to sixteen (assuming Leyton promoted him to LT CMDR when he made him XO) and Jadzia Dax in seven.
I also noted that. The amount of time he spent in Starfleet before being promoted Lt Cmd actually sounds totally excessive to me when compared to his colleagues, especially if you take the quality of his work into account. It brings the racism question back on stage again...Was Data's career slowed down by bigoted anti-android people ? Or maybe it wasn't because of anti-android politics but just because people judged him socially unfit due to his lack of (conscious) emotions ?
It is a bit slow. Chakotay pace. Though considering how socially clueless season one Data is, he must have been hella awkward in his early career. More like B-4. That alone would prevent swift promotion to leadership positions.
I love your ideas because they’re often from a viewpoint that would not occur to me, including in this case. Reminds me of how in an Apple Store uniform colors are seasonal instead of departmental.
In Trek’s case, the DS9 staff discusses the department colors in “Troubles and Tribble-ations”.
...Alas, the scope is modest, with only the practical manifestation of an unknown underlying principle being discussed ("Ops wore red, command wore gold"). Ditto with the bits where Eddington can't become a (starship?) captain in gold, or O'Brien starts to wear gold when ceasing to be an infantryman or whatever and becoming a tactical officer for Maxwell. All we can tell, after decades upon decades of Trek and something like half a dozen distinct color schemes, is that certain departments or positions fall under certain colors - not that certain colors would specifically signify departments or positions one on one.
Since any "system" would be hopelessly byzantine to construct ex post facto, the Makers have made a good choice in emphasizing the constant change instead. As in, yeah, there are some very bright colors, but even the heroes themselves don't really care all that much.
Timo Saloniemi
Since any "system" would be hopelessly byzantine to construct ex post facto, the Makers have made a good choice in emphasizing the constant change instead. As in, yeah, there are some very bright colors, but even the heroes themselves don't really care all that much.
Timo Saloniemi
Which is interesting, because the general assumption is that Starfleet ground forces are Security and would wear Gold anyway*. However, if they were still wearing the 'Monster Marooons' at the time, then he'd be wearing either Security Green or Federation Forces Blue as an infantryman so it makes sense.
*NB Current USN terminology would suggest that infantry (rather than Base Security Guards) should wear Red on the TNG+ scheme as the navy's ship command and land combat officers are grouped together as "Warfare Officers".
...Whereas a Tactical Officer might be assumed to wear Red, unless he or she is temping as Security Chief, Worf or Tuvok style.
At least Kirk's supposed Tactical People or Tactical Aides wore either the Red of the day, that is, Gold, or then possibly even Blue, depending on how we interpret his selection of entourage in "Arena"; poor O'Herlihy in Red seemed to be a mere bodyguard, quickly disposed of in a trap supposedly intended to capture the Tactical Folks alive. And the guns of Kirk's ship were fired by Goldshirts.
Quite possibly so. Indirect dating puts the O'Brien event at 2347, while our first solid proof of something other than the (now collarless) Maroons comes from the photo in "Suddenly Human", dated at 2353.
It's a bit funny, though, that O'Brien would equate the Maroons Gold with "the gold suit" when the Gold he is wearing at the time (of "Paradise") signifies something else altogether, something perhaps closer to the Maroons Grey.
Interesting. Then again, we don't exactly know what O'Brien was back in the day. When he did fight as an infantryman at Setlik, sending entire Cardassian regiments running, this was as late as 2362, postdating at least the uniform change and possibly also the stint as Tactical Officer. The first time around at Setlik, in 2347, O'Brien was part of a peacetime landing party sent out to investigate a petty raid, and had no experience firing phasers at the enemy at settings other than stun.
Perhaps this "infantry" idea is off base altogether, and even any sort of a security role is a misunderstanding, with O'Brien in 2347 beaming down "with a squad" rather than as part of a squad. But nothing indicates he would have been a medic or a communications specialist or anything like that. Perhaps he was an engineer already, or at least a tech, and his fumbling with the field transporter just tells us his technical specialty was something else?
It's not really a case of the evidence not adding up, but of there being nowhere near enough of it. Just about anything is possible here.
Timo Saloniemi
Data was certainly making some sort of estimate, as if he were quoting his own career he would say exactly how long he was in the Lieutenant grades.
I think the most reasonable guess is that he was describing an "average" career, which his own closely followed (thus making it reasonable to presume that Lore would do the same).
And yes, most of his colleagues had been promoted faster than that, but they were all supposed to be exceptional individuals.
By the way, I made a math error: Troi graduated the Academy the year before Data made LtCmdr, not the same year.
One also has to wonder whether Lieutenant Commander is one of those grades.
And whether Data is saying that one gets promoted out of Lieutenant grades at the end of that period, or needs to log that many years "on varied space duty" but in addition needs some desk years before the promotion may be considered.
We can also presume Data would make a point of following the average, or the human norm, the most closely at the beginning, and possibly deviating from it later as he gained more experience and self-confidence.
It was indeed emphasized how the E-D was a coveted assignment, and how Picard had hand-picked his team. It's still telling that e.g. Riker wasn't the top of his class or anything: Starfleet has plenty of bright people, and still may well have an average weighed down by the other sort.
Depends a bit on how far we trust the "Conundrum" files. The default assumption of four Academy years may be fallacy, considering. And especially for our blueshirts!
Timo Saloniemi
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