Myer explains the reason they didn't use Saavik in his commentary track for TUC.
Admiral Young
Admiral Young
Why Valeris and not Saavik?
- Thread starter blockaderunner
- Start date
I see what you're saying, though I still disagree. I'm inclined to think that had they used Saavik, it would have resulted in more of a WTF moment. And, let's face it, it might not have been as mysterious anyway. The audience knows that none of the original cast would be the assassin; and Saavik, despite her loyalty, would still be a relatively new character. Perhaps in the long run it might have actually hurt the character if she'd been used, because it would make people wonder whether she was still trustworthy at all after TSFS.
Eh, I dunno.
True it would've been a WTF moment however the question would be...knowing what we know about Saavik from the prior movies at the time and her connection with Spock (the possibility that she had Spock's child...sorry just watched the Voyage home commentary with Nimoy and Shatner and Nimoy had suggested that is one reason why Saavik did not accompany them on the trip home) and relationship with David(if one even exisisted) how would you as a fan responded to this betrayal? You would've been shocked which is the point, but would you be able to accept it? The arguement has been that many fans would not and thus the reason for pulling this from the film. I personally would've been upset had this been the case however though after thinking about it logically (no pun intended) storywise it makes greater sense using Saavik for that punch in the gut and it could further push Spock into his later role as Romulan Ambassador. I can't remember what novelization (I know they're not really considered canon) either ST:II or III or VI (for Valeris) the author has a paragraph describing (I now believe this is Valeris) that she was part Romulan and that her parents had been killed at some point in the past which what motivated her to join Starfleet in the first place. I'm pretty sure it was Valeris and Star Trek VI.
Admiral Young
Admiral Young
I would not have found it believable given her attachment to Spock and respect and loyality for Kirk.
Saavik also could have been played as an opposite to Kirk. They are both still hurting from David's death... Kirk moves forward, and Saavik does not. Saavik's got lots of reasons to carry David's death with her... Valeris does not.
Unicron, I know what you mean, but using Saavik at least would have made the "bad guy" not a guest character, which, to me, screamed "she's gone at the end of the movie", especially with all that set-up in Spock's quarters - they've got to make her likable as quickly as possible. Now why would they do that?
Unicron, I know what you mean, but using Saavik at least would have made the "bad guy" not a guest character, which, to me, screamed "she's gone at the end of the movie", especially with all that set-up in Spock's quarters - they've got to make her likable as quickly as possible. Now why would they do that?
Yeah, that's why I said I'm unsure. If it had been Saavik, then she'd have been gone at the end of her third movie (omitting her minor appearance in TVH, since it's minor). I generally hate to invoke "canon" but I will admit I've always ignored her half-Romulan heritage in the TWOK novelization. It just doesn't click with me, and I find it odd that Starfleet would admit such a cadet with the Romulans as a potential enemy. I simply prefer her to be full Vulcan.
Course, I've never been happy with how little Trek has given us on a lot of its aliens, so perhaps that's another reason I prefer things this way.
Course, I've never been happy with how little Trek has given us on a lot of its aliens, so perhaps that's another reason I prefer things this way.
With the value of 20-20 hindsight ...
As we'll probably never see Saavik again, why not make her a villainess for the ages?
As we'll probably never see Saavik again, why not make her a villainess for the ages?
^That would've been awesome...
Admiral Young
Admiral Young
There's another way to go about it: how about Saavik as a Romulan mole? Granted, Romulan mental technology is coercive, but they might have succeeded -- without an abandoned child's consent -- in creating false memories and placing her where Federation compassion would be sure to take her in. In fact, if -I- were doing it, I'd gear it so that she -would- be someone that Spock and his family would foster.
During the "mind-rape" scene, this could emerge in THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY. She could either be rehabilitated or, as a Romulan at last, commit Final Honor.
During the "mind-rape" scene, this could emerge in THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY. She could either be rehabilitated or, as a Romulan at last, commit Final Honor.
"Valeris" was thought to be a Klingon name - by Kirk - in the ST VI novelization (p 51), and he studies her for Klingon features and wonders if she's half Romulan, like Saavik. But Valeris is a full-blooded Vulcan (p 53). However, like Saavik, Valeris had not been raised in accordance with Vulcan traditions, and had chosen to follow it in later life.
Valeris's parents were in the Vulcan Diplomatic Corps, stationed on Zorakis, bordering Klingon space (p 71). T'Paal, her mother, named Valeris after an honoured female Klingon warrior (p 72). When T'Paal and her mate, Sessl, tried to open a dialogue with the Klingons, T'Paal was assassinated. Sessl decided that Surak was wrong and published a treatise that future peace with Klingons was to be resisted.
I like the idea that the conspirator (Valeris or Saavik) is a full Vulcan. That, through logic, she has decided that in this moment of Klingon weakness is the Federation opportunity to decisively destroy them.
It makes the betrayal of Spock more awful (so close to his ideals, but so far), it makes the character more chilling, it realistically breaks up the idea of a monolithic "Vulcan" culture and nobility.
I liked TWOK's novelization's approach to Saavik's heritage, but with none of it on screen, it makes a weak motivation for the character. I think a full-Vulcan, long-standing Saavik would have made a better conspirator.
This background seems to suggest she had an unorthodox streak, or was in any case raised in a household of most emotional hatred for the Klingons.
I kind of preferred the idea implied in the film (particularly in her 'isn't it logical' scene with Spock) that her motives were just that: Cold, iron logic. Emotionless logic isn't necessarily the nicest, gentlest thing, no matter how much good-guy the Vulcans have frequently been depicted as. Indeed, there's no reason to suppose emotionless logic and pacifism are inherently interdependent - and clearly Valeris didn't.
I agree. While the Vulcans might not have the same emotional hatred for the Klingons that many humans had, and there was certainly logic in the idea of peace, I don't doubt many of them would have found the notion of suddenly allying with a long-term enemy to be potentially illogical and dangerous.
I also kind of liked an idea suggested in DC Comics' Revisitations. In the second half, which takes place between TFF and TUC and features the return of Gary Seven, the Feds are testing a new weapon that could conceivably replace weapons like phasers and torpedoes. It's meant to be a "deterrent" superweapon against the Romulans and the Klingons, much like nukes are today.
Kirk is chosen to oversee the tests precisely because he doesn't like that it's a protomatter weapon, and if he were convinced that the project is worthwhile, anyone would be. Of course the weapon proves unstable in the end, and this is part of Gary's subplot. But I think the failure of this weapon system is one thing that pushed Admiral Cartwright toward the conspiracy, because he would have felt there were no other deterrents to fall back on if the Klingons weren't serious about peace.
I also kind of liked an idea suggested in DC Comics' Revisitations. In the second half, which takes place between TFF and TUC and features the return of Gary Seven, the Feds are testing a new weapon that could conceivably replace weapons like phasers and torpedoes. It's meant to be a "deterrent" superweapon against the Romulans and the Klingons, much like nukes are today.
Kirk is chosen to oversee the tests precisely because he doesn't like that it's a protomatter weapon, and if he were convinced that the project is worthwhile, anyone would be. Of course the weapon proves unstable in the end, and this is part of Gary's subplot. But I think the failure of this weapon system is one thing that pushed Admiral Cartwright toward the conspiracy, because he would have felt there were no other deterrents to fall back on if the Klingons weren't serious about peace.
