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"Why The New Star Trek Must Ignore The Trekkies..."

Sorry, I just don't buy into this "we are trying to make it appeal to a bigger audience" Bull.
Like it or not, Star Trek carries with it a certain stigma if you will. If the movie is called Star Trek, then regardless a certain number of people just will not go and see it, New Cast or not, It is just the way it is. Regardless, I hope they make a good movie, but either way The ORIGINAL and BEST version of the series is NEVER going to go away, and thay should consider The Fan Base to some extent.
But that is just my opinion.
 
They are trying. And they will fail. And (hopefully) Trek will go gently into that good night. It has raged against the dying of the light for far too long, now.
 
Brutal Strudel said:
They are trying. And they will fail. And (hopefully) Trek will go gently into that good night. It has raged against the dying of the light for far too long, now.

Blasphemy! :mad:
 
Brutal Strudel said:
They are trying. And they will fail. And (hopefully) Trek will go gently into that good night.

Gee, I wonder if they ever told William Shakespeare that his plays couldn't continue after the deaths of the first actors to play the roles, thus ending any hope future generations had of seeing any reinterpretations of the original works?

Mmmm. That would include "Forbidden Planet", and ST's own "The Conscience of the King" and "Elaan of Troyius"...
 
When I read articles like this one, the first reaction I get is the same one I get from certain posters on this very BBS:

"I think I'm the only cool Star Trek fan... everyone else is a dork. They should pay attention to ME but ignore all the dorks."

This article was written by someone who was basically trying to massage his or her own ego at the expense of the "lesser fans."

The reality is that this argument, and virtually every other "I'm cooler than the rest of you" argument I've heard, comes down to that. It's predicated on the FALSE PREMISE that Star Trek is somehow a "special case."

The idea is that somehow, the Star Trek fan base is somehow different. While EVERY OTHER FORM OF ENTERTAINMENT is based primarily upon "being able to entertain audiences," somehow WE are different.

Which is patently BULLSHIT.

We... every single last freakin' one of us here... got into this show because it was ENTERTAINING. It was good stories and good characters and good visuals and whatever else. We weren't raised in some "Star Trek Monastery" and brainwashed into being fans.

The fact is that Star Trek is one of the most popular modern entertainments. It's brought in fans who love the CONTENT OF THE SHOW.

In recent years, the show's content has decreased in quality somewhat, and we've seen a fall-off in the appreciation for the later work. And somehow that comes as a SURPRISE to people??? It's lunacy, I'm telling you.

If the film is entertaining, it will gain audiences. If it's not, it won't. "Duh."

Now, part of being "entertaining" for a WORK OF FICTION is that it needs to be able to draw the audience into believing, even if only for the two hours that they're sitting in a theater, that what they're watching is real. "Willful suspension of disbelief" is the term for that. Films that can do that are generally far more successful than those which don't... parodies being the principle exception to that, of course.

The reason that changing core elements of Trek history is a bad thing isn't because this is some sort of "cult" and that the faithful will go onto a Jihad over Kirk's safe combination being changed. It's because the original series is VERY FAMILIAR to the audiences already.

The more you deviate from what has come before, the more likely you are to break the "spell" of that "willful suspension of disbelief."

If the an audience member sees something that jars him or her out of their reverie... whether it be a bad casting decision (so that the audience is constantly reminded that "this isn't actually James T. Kirk, it's that dude from Dawson's Creek pretending to be James T. Kirk") or an unnecessary redesign (so that the audience member, who knows what the Enterprise looks like, is constantly reminded that this is a "kewl new version" and not the same ship he or she has seen for years) or whatever else... if ANY of that happens, it simply has the effect of reminding that audience member that "it's all hollywood bullshit." And they simply won't be drawn into the storytelling.

Implementing unnecessary changes compromises the story, and doesn't help it in any way.

Now, there are NECESSARY changes. Obviously, Shatner can't play a 27-year-old Jim Kirk. That, also, would have the effect of tossing the audiences out of their reveries. So recasting was inevitable and absolutely necessary.

Not necessary to "make the Trek-cultists happy" as this author and certain other overly smug clowns tend to keep repeating.

But necessary to ensure that the widest possible audience will be able to immerse themselves into the storytelling experience.

There WILL be changes. It's inevitable. But changes must not be made just for the hell of it, because some egomaniac thinks that he can "redo it better" than it was done before. If it's NECESSARY, it should be done. If it will enhance without distracting, it should be done.

But they must not be changes that will prevent the audience from believing that they're watching the same people, in the same situations, as they remember.

If that happens, it WILL result in a failed film, and as Brutal said, above, most likely the final death knell for Star Trek as a form of popular entertainment.
 
Therin of Andor said:
Brutal Strudel said:
They are trying. And they will fail. And (hopefully) Trek will go gently into that good night.

Gee, I wonder if they ever told William Shakespeare that his plays couldn't continue after the deaths of the first actors to play the roles, thus ending any hope future generations had of seeing any reinterpretations of the original works?

Mmmm. That would include "Forbidden Planet", and ST's own "The Conscience of the King" and "Elaan of Troyius"...

Worst. Analogy. Ever.

If someone is going to make Hamlet, they generally go ahead and make Hamlet, not Elsinore: The Next Generation or The Adventures of Lil' Claudius: Boy Poisoner. (Stoppard may have a hit with Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead but that was an absurdist, post-modern riff, something we sophisticated Trekkies wouldn't stand for; Updike had a critical failure on his hands with Gertrude and Clauduius.)

As for FP, TCotK and EoT, no one ever said Trek's influence couldn't, wouldn't or shouldn't ripple through the culture: it's tough to find a space opera that isn't indebted to or struggling manfully to be different from Trek. But to have yet another re-tread of the same characters, same adversaries, same universe, same tired formula--that's what we're talking about here, not Shakespeare in the Park.
 
Really, the "let it die rather than change" crowd makes the author's point for him pretty clearly. Fortunately, Abrams and company do seem to have bigger things on their mind than getting the macaroni and cheese on the table for hard-core fandom in order to avoid getting smacked around.
 
Here's a better analogy: No one ever told Saxo Grammaticus that, when he put down his pen, the story of Ameleth was a closed book and no one could ever attempt to retell it. A number of people did, and the retelling has proved more enduring than the original. The echo has outlived the voice, to paraphrase a movie I saw once or twice.
 
DeafPoet said:
Let's face it. The gentleman who wrote the article is right. We Trekkies (read: anyone reading this) don't really count in the grand scheme. And you know what? I'm glad. We're not even close to being far enough removed from this to make a good movie. It's all fanboy details stuff that we want.

For instance, look at all the posts/topics concerning Gary Mitchell in the film. I'm a diehard and even I don't give a shit if he makes an appearance (which he won't except for a mention or an N.D.). It's shit like that that has us as a movement (apologies to Cogley) looking like a bunch of clowns.

The fact is, does Gary Mitchell's inclusion (or Kevin Riley's or Mrs. Roddenberry's) make this a fundamentally better film? No. Almost unequivocally no.

We Trekkies hope it rules, and we love to bitch about things on the internet, but I hope to god JJ isn't reading too closely.

Very well said. :bolian:
 
they should not COMPLETELY ignore us. the last time "they" did, we got Enterprise, remember?

though, because JJ seems to be a Trekkie, I do trust his instincts. but moderation is key in everything. I don't want another Voyage Home. but I don't want a Nemesis, either. they need to pay heed to what makes a Trekkie happy and do some of that while they concentrate on roping in the larger non-Trekkie demographic.

all this reminds me of the X-Files movie, btw.
 
Cary L. Brown said:
The fact is that Star Trek is one of the most popular modern entertainments. It's brought in fans who love the CONTENT OF THE SHOW.

In recent years, the show's content has decreased in quality somewhat, and we've seen a fall-off in the appreciation for the later work. And somehow that comes as a SURPRISE to people??? It's lunacy, I'm telling you.

please forgive a trim for space while i quote you for truth. Everything you said is precisely how I feel about the movie and the rage against necessary changes on fanboyish reasons, whilst at the same time hoping they don't change unnecessary things for no reason.
 
indranee said:
they should not COMPLETELY ignore us. the last time "they" did, we got Enterprise, remember?

"Enterprise" as a production was way too deferential to the "fan base."

If Abrams and company succeed in entertaining a broad audience, they can take fandom for granted. If they worry themselves too much about not upsetting the expectations of vocal fans, however, they're far more likely to go the way of DS9, "Voyager" and "Enterprise" - the kind of continuity-laden pabulum that can only satisfy people who want to live in the "Star Trek universe."
 
Cary L. Brown said:
When I read articles like this one, the first reaction I get is the same one I get from certain posters on this very BBS:

"I think I'm the only cool Star Trek fan... everyone else is a dork. They should pay attention to ME but ignore all the dorks."

It's funny, but I know I'm a totally dysfunctional dipshit. The only thing I can do well is sound impressive. Sure, I wish somebody would make a movie for me, but I'm pretty sure that my tastes aren't the popular tastes. So I won't be expecting any Nielsen pollsters calling to see what I want to see in this movie any time soon.
 
Starship Polaris said:
indranee said:
they should not COMPLETELY ignore us. the last time "they" did, we got Enterprise, remember?

"Enterprise" as a production was way too deferential to the "fan base."

If Abrams and company succeed in entertaining a broad audience, they can take fandom for granted. If they worry themselves too much about not upsetting the expectations of vocal fans, however, they're far more likely to go the way of DS9, "Voyager" and "Enterprise" - the kind of continuity-laden pabulum that can only satisfy people who want to live in the "Star Trek universe."

not for the first three seasons, it wasn't. and then it went way overboard. ugh. :eek:
 
indranee said:
Starship Polaris said:
indranee said:
they should not COMPLETELY ignore us. the last time "they" did, we got Enterprise, remember?

"Enterprise" as a production was way too deferential to the "fan base."

If Abrams and company succeed in entertaining a broad audience, they can take fandom for granted. If they worry themselves too much about not upsetting the expectations of vocal fans, however, they're far more likely to go the way of DS9, "Voyager" and "Enterprise" - the kind of continuity-laden pabulum that can only satisfy people who want to live in the "Star Trek universe."

not for the first three seasons, it wasn't.

Yes, it was. A Trek television series that successfully updated the thing such that an audience other than trekkies might take an interest in it would have had to have been very, very different. They tried to fix the thing without alienating the few million people who kept clinging to Trek through DS9 and "Voyager," and ended up satisfying few people very much as a result.

There's a difference between "trying to please" and "satisfying" - and there's no satisfying an abusive group like much of Internet trek fandom.
 
how on earth can you say that stuff like the suliban and the decon scene were playing to the Trekkies?! to a certain demographic, yes, but NOT to Trekkies. hell, no.

Season 4 played to Trekkies, and Season 3 was somewhat of an attempt to replicate a DS9-ish flavor. and that's it, pretty much, in a nutshell.
 
indranee said:
how on earth can you say that stuff like the suliban and the decon scene were playing to the Trekkies?!

That's right - my God, the show actually contained some things trekkies might not like!

Maybe actually more than one or two things!

And there are folks who have them all catalogued for quick reference, to this day.

Which, of course, is entirely different than ignoring or making no substantial attempt to please the fanbase. The fact that fans confuse "pandering to us and exclusively to us all the time" with "respecting and caring about what the fans want" is why anyone who wants to do something creative with Trek is best off following their own intuition and judgment and letting the fans either get on board or sulk.
 
Delta1 said:
Here's a better analogy: No one ever told Saxo Grammaticus that, when he put down his pen, the story of Ameleth was a closed book and no one could ever attempt to retell it. A number of people did, and the retelling has proved more enduring than the original. The echo has outlived the voice, to paraphrase a movie I saw once or twice.

So the guys who brought us Xena and the Transformers are Shakespeare? That would make Harlan Ellison, Robert Bloch, Norman Spinrad, Jerome Bixby, John D.F. Black and Richard Matheson (among others) who, exactly? Funny that you quote the final nail in TNG's coffin to make the point.

Anyway, Trek is little more than a series of re-tellings of countless space operas, nautical adventures, myths, plays and westerns that went before it. I'm all for Trek becoming part of the rich cultural soil from which it sprung, not so much for it to lurch about in zombified brainlessness for the next forty years.

Somebody said this in another thread. It fits this thread, too. :D

Brutal Strudel said:
The New Yorker recently did a profile of David Simon, the producer of the critically acclaimed (and low-rated) HBO series The Wire. Reading the piece, I was struck once again by how many of that show's writers hail from professional crime fiction (George Pellecanos, Dennis Lehane and Richard Price) or from years in the trenches of journalism--Simon himself was a crime reporter for the Baltimore Sun. I am a huge fan of The Wire, placing it a very close second to The Sopranos for best tv show ever. (TOS places around 5th or 6th on the list, maybe 7th--I've never actually sat down and made it. No spin-off makes the top ten--DS9 barely cracks the top twenty-five.)

What's dis gots ta do with Trek? Many people are saying its no big deal that Trek XI is being helmed by the creator of Felicity and Alias or that it is written by the guys who gave us The Transformers and Xena: Warrior Princess. Many fans have no problem with the fact that Trek essentially severed all ties to lit SF in the 80s and instead relied on its tired bullpen and the occasional fan-pitched script. By contrast, The X-Files--a show I never made time for--managed to snag a script by William Gibson. TOS had many good and great episodes penned by SF lumminaries: Roddenberry was no saint--he was a liar and thief who became a deranged shadow in ruthless and fruitleess competition with his former self in his later years--but he had an eye for quality and he knew to go out of Hollywood in order to get it. And then these same fans wonder why some of us aren't jumping up and down like schoolgirls at a Hannah Montana concert for this latest project.

I can answer only for myself: I am not interested in any more in-bred Hollywood Trek. I am a science fiction fan first and foremost and a Trekkie second. The "franchise" (and if that term doesn't say it all...) stopped being SF a long time ago and has become a sui generis Ronald McDonald Land.

Not that I agree 100%... no, wait, I do. I just want to add I'm not about to walk around with a raging hard-on because some guys who have never impressed or interested me before promise to give us a new Shamrock Shake Slide. :cool:
 
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