Why The Huge Gap Between TMP & WOK?

[Christopher]

Decker was the captain in command of the vessel and its crew during its refit. As I understand it, that's not unusual in the navy. After all, even a ship undergoing a drydock refit has a crew that has responsibilities and needs a commanding officer to direct their efforts. Just because that isn't as exciting or glamorous as a captain in the field, that doesn't mean he wasn't a real captain.

My solution for in universe Canon mistakes? Time travel. There have been so many time travel events we've seen, and likely so many more that we haven't seen, that there is no real timeline. Everytime someone goes back BOOM, butterflies out the wazoo changing everything in the show.

But in a case like this, it's far easier to assume that the speaker was merely incorrect. Some people seem to want every single line of spoken dialogue to be treated as absolutely reliable gospel, but that's deeply unrealistic. In real life, people get things wrong all the time. That's why hearsay isn't admissible in court. So if a character asserts something that conflicts with canon, and there's nothing beyond that single assertion to back it up, the simplest, most likely explanation is that the character was wrong. Because if there's one thing more completely fanciful and unbelievable than a reality where people can travel through time, it's a reality where people never make mistakes.

 

[locutus101]

Or mysterious infections. Or a murder.

The problem is that there's no need for a captain in space dock. Janeway for example didn't spend more than a day or two in space dock, if that. We saw Picard get to his ship for the first time in outer space.

 

[locutus101]

Decker was the captain in command of the vessel and its crew during its refit. As I understand it, that's not unusual in the navy. After all, even a ship undergoing a drydock refit has a crew that has responsibilities and needs a commanding officer to direct their efforts. Just because that isn't as exciting or glamorous as a captain in the field, that doesn't mean he wasn't a real captain.




But in a case like this, it's far easier to assume that the speaker was merely incorrect. Some people seem to want every single line of spoken dialogue to be treated as absolutely reliable gospel, but that's deeply unrealistic. In real life, people get things wrong all the time. That's why hearsay isn't admissible in court. So if a character asserts something that conflicts with canon, and there's nothing beyond that single assertion to back it up, the simplest, most likely explanation is that the character was wrong. Because if there's one thing more completely fanciful and unbelievable than a reality where people can travel through time, it's a reality where people never make mistakes.

It's not always clear who made the mistake, though.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

The problem is that there's no need for a captain in space dock. Janeway for example didn't spend more than a day or two in space dock, if that. We saw Picard get to his ship for the first time in outer space.

Maybe Decker's a little more hands on, more engineer-y. That would fit with his interest in V'ger (aside from Ilia, that is)

 

[locutus101]

Maybe Decker's a little more hands on, more engineer-y. That would fit with his interest in V'ger (aside from Ilia, that is)

The point is that when Kirk replaced him, Decker hadn't proved himself to be a captain on the field yet. He never got the chance, actually.

 

[wayoung]

Decker was the captain in command of the vessel and its crew during its refit. As I understand it, that's not unusual in the navy. After all, even a ship undergoing a drydock refit has a crew that has responsibilities and needs a commanding officer to direct their efforts. Just because that isn't as exciting or glamorous as a captain in the field, that doesn't mean he wasn't a real captain.




But in a case like this, it's far easier to assume that the speaker was merely incorrect. Some people seem to want every single line of spoken dialogue to be treated as absolutely reliable gospel, but that's deeply unrealistic. In real life, people get things wrong all the time. That's why hearsay isn't admissible in court. So if a character asserts something that conflicts with canon, and there's nothing beyond that single assertion to back it up, the simplest, most likely explanation is that the character was wrong. Because if there's one thing more completely fanciful and unbelievable than a reality where people can travel through time, it's a reality where people never make mistakes.

Oh, I agree - I always side with the "The character was just wrong" argument in all these threads - my time travel was more of a general comment on canon arguments. It's like Lucy Lawless' Simpson's quote "wizards did it" whenever there is some contradiction that just can't be explained. And, logically, it kinda works in context of the franchise.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

The point is that when Kirk replaced him, Decker hadn't proved himself to be a field captain yet. He never got the chance, actually.

Exactly. I don't disagree. He may have gotten the false impression, "Hey! There's nothing to this captain business!" after a few weeks spent signing forms, listening to updates, and inspecting sections of the ship.

 

[wayoung]

The point is that when Kirk replaced him, Decker hadn't proved himself to be a field captain yet. He never got the chance, actually.

He was assigned as the field captain though wasnt he? He was with the Enterprise during the refit with all intentions to command her when it was finished? Didn't he get the position pretty much because of Kirk's recommendation (plus a little bit of good old fashioned nepotism)? Or am I confusing the novel's with the movie again?

 

[locutus101]

Keeping it all together is a full time job.

 

[Christopher]

The problem is that there's no need for a captain in space dock. Janeway for example didn't spend more than a day or two in space dock, if that. We saw Picard get to his ship for the first time in outer space.

There is a need for a captain to oversee the crew, even if it's not the same captain who commands the ship in the field. As I said, I gather that's how it actually works in real life. Ships get different captains for different missions/postings all the time, including captains who oversee them while they're in dock. After all, someone has to be in charge of their construction, maintenance, or whatever.

In the Pocket TNG anthology The Sky's the Limit, we found that Captain Thomas Halloway (the person who commanded the E-D in the alternate present of "Tapestry") was in command of the Enterprise-D during the years-long process of its construction, though he declined the opportunity to command it in the field.

And speaking of Pocket, we already did get a Captain Will Decker story, Diane Duane's "Night Whispers" in the Enterprise Logs anthology. It's set immediately before ST:TMP and shows what his responsibilities were like.

He was assigned as the field captain though wasnt he? He was with the Enterprise during the refit with all intentions to command her when it was finished? Didn't he get the position pretty much because of Kirk's recommendation (plus a little bit of good old fashioned nepotism)? Or am I confusing the novel's with the movie again?

No, you're right. That's why Decker was so upset about Kirk bumping him from the center seat, even on what Kirk claimed would be a temporary basis.

 

[Tallguy]

That doesn't make him a captain. That makes him a refitting supervisor.

No, but Scotty calls him the captain, Kirk calls him the captain, and alien guy calls him the captain. And Kirk recommended him for command. So he had to have something going for him,

 

[locutus101]

He was assigned as the field captain though wasnt he? He was with the Enterprise during the refit with all intentions to command her when it was finished? Didn't he get the position pretty much because of Kirk's recommendation (plus a little bit of good old fashioned nepotism)? Or am I confusing the novel's with the movie again?

I agree that he was assigned to be the Captain but he hadn't proved himself yet. Remember what happened to that officer who replaced Kirk when he was aging rapidly? He didn't do very well, did he?

 

[wayoung]

Remember what happened to that officer who replaced Kirk when he was aging rapidly? He didn't do very well, did he?

Patrick Stewart?

 

[locutus101]

Patrick Stewart?

I was speaking of TOS "The Deadly Years" of course.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

I agree that he was assigned to be the Captain but he hadn't proved himself yet. Remember what happened to that officer who replaced Kirk when he was aging rapidly? He didn't do very well, did he?

Nope, not at all! Decker may not have proven himself as Captain of Enterprise, but Kirk himself recommended him for the command, so he saw something in him. I understand Scotty also says he's an untried Captain (Decker).

Harriman was also given command but was untried.

 

[locutus101]

Nope, not at all! Decker may not have proven himself as Captain of Enterprise, but Kirk himself recommended him for the command, so he saw something in him. I understand Scotty also says he's an untried Captain (Decker).

Harriman was also given command but was untried.

Or maybe Kirk was only using that threat as an excuse to get back on the field and the only way he could do that was by taking over the command of the Enterprise.

 

[DeepSpaceYorks]

In my head canon I have Decker serving aboard the Enterprise in the last year of its first 5YM. That way at least Decker has some space experience and Kirk can know him and groom him as a protege. Then when Kirk is promoted he can say 'I recommend you put Will Decker in command, he's a fine young officer and worthy of the opportunity'

 

[wayoung]

In my head canon I have Decker serving aboard the Enterprise in the last year of its first 5YM. That way at least Decker has some space experience and Kirk can know him and groom him as a protege. Then when Kirk is promoted he can say 'I recommend you put Will Decker in command, he's a fine young officer and worthy of the opportunity'

Will Decker is Commodore Matt Decker's son, that's how Kirk knows him and why Kirk assists with his career. Nepotism survives to the 23rd century Also guilt, if I remember the novelization correctly. Both of which seem to play a large role in a lot of Kirk's crew selections (see Riley, Finney).

 

[DeepSpaceYorks]

Will Decker is Commodore Matt Decker's son, that's how Kirk knows him and why Kirk assists with his career. Nepotism survives to the 23rd century Also guilt, if I remember the novelization correctly. Both of which seem to play a large role in a lot of Kirk's crew selections (see Riley, Finney).

That doesn't mean Kirk didn't help him get a post on the Enterprise towards the end of the first 5YM though does it?

 

[Tenacity]

In my head canon I have Decker serving aboard the Enterprise in the last year of its first 5YM.

We don't know when Spock left (not in canon), so if Spock resigned/sabbatical at the beginning of the fifth year, Decker could have been assigned by Starfleet as first officer.