Why The Huge Gap Between TMP & WOK?

[Lance]

On the other hand, much of the later TV shows and movies used it for details, timeframes, etc., whether verbatim or loosely, so there's a lot of corroboration, before and after the fact. (They also do a very good job of citing their sources, so you know how they're reaching their conclusions.)

Of course if it later appears on TV then it's a different story. That 'sanctions' it. But there is a lot in the Chronology that was never backed up on TV or film.

The Okudas being members of the production staff at the time does not, in itself, until the screen work references what appears in their Chronology, ie the biog details in "Conundrum" for example, or Voyager's belated confirmation that the original five year mission did indeed end in 2270. Until it had appeared on film, such things were still a matter of conjecture/debate, no matter how many fans may have accepted the Chronology as 'fact'.

We all knew Uhura's first name was off-reference meant to by Nyota, but until 2009 it was not canon.

Film and TV hold the trump card.

 

[Christopher]

The Okudas being members of the production staff at the time does not, in itself, until the screen work references what appears in their Chronology, ie the biog details in "Conundrum" for example, or Voyager's belated confirmation that the original five year mission did indeed end in 2270.

Now, that actually overwrote the Chronology, because the book put the end of the 5YM in 2269 and TMP in 2271.

We all knew Uhura's first name was off-reference meant to by Nyota, but until 2009 it was not canon.

Film and TV hold the trump card.

I think most everyone here already knows that, thank you. But as WebLurker said, we're talking about the demonstrable influence that the Chronology has had on subsequent canon. The writers of Generations were clearly using it as their template when they put Kirk's time with Antonia in 2282-4.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

To be fair, the Okuda's did preface their book with a piece basically explaining their policy on conjecture and how it isn't meant to be taken as definitive. And an astonishing amount of the book's entries have the tag 'Conjecture' next to them, making them suspect.

The fault lies mainly in the fandom choosing to take things like the conjecture about character's birthdays etc as a source, which then got perpetuated as the literal truth in the absence of anything saying otherwise. 'Fanon' became 'Canon' almost by accident.

Yeah. Overall, I'd say that they did a very good job, and the 24th century dates hang together very well, since the Okudas were around when most of that stuff was conceived. I just wish they'd consulted more with folks like D.C. Fontana or Nicholas Meyer, who created the 23rd century continuity, and deferred to their interpretations a bit more.

But I suppose it was inevitable that their conjectures would become fact in the absence of any other data. I wonder how the Chronology would have turned out if the 1988 writer's strike hadn't set that 2364 date in stone in "The Neutral Zone"?

On the other hand, much of the later TV shows and movies used it for details, timeframes, etc., whether verbatim or loosely, so there's a lot of corroboration, before and after the fact. (They also do a very good job of citing their sources, so you know how they're reaching their conclusions.)

I think "corroboration" is a bit strong, since Trek revealing things like the Federation being founded in 2161 or Kirk's retirement spanning from 2282-84 were basically the Okudas making their personal conjectures official. I don't know what a more appropriate word might be, however... "Canonization"?

And heck, I probably would have done the same thing if I were in their shoes.

 

[Tallguy]

I don't know what a more appropriate word might be, however... "Canonization"?

That's when a piece of continuity has three miracles attributed to it.

 

[locutus101]

That's when a piece of continuity has three miracles attributed to it.

And they wait at least 30 or 40 years after its death to start the procedure.

 

[Christopher]

I think "corroboration" is a bit strong, since Trek revealing things like the Federation being founded in 2161 or Kirk's retirement spanning from 2282-84 were basically the Okudas making their personal conjectures official.

Well, technically the 2161 date was established onscreen before the Chronology came out, but Jeri Taylor did use an early draft of the book as reference for the episode. Still, that was part of the Okudas' job on the show -- to provide such technical and continuity details as requested by the writers/producers. They weren't "making their personal conjectures official," they were fulfilling their professional responsibility as technical consultants. The Chronology and Encyclopedia were outgrowths of that job. They probably compiled their own continuity database for use on the show, fleshing it out with new details as the scripts required, and then after five years they figured they had enough worked out that they could expand it into full reference books for the public. Much as the TNG Technical Manual was an expansion of the earlier Writers' Technical Manual that was provided for freelancers alongside the series bible.

Also, of course, consultants are merely that -- consultants. They can't compel the writers/producers to follow their advice. They just make suggestions when asked. It was Jeri Taylor, Ron Moore, Brannon Braga, and others who decided to use the dates the Okudas proposed.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That's when a piece of continuity has three miracles attributed to it.

They wrote it, they filmed it, they aired it?

 

[locutus101]

They wrote it, they filmed it, they aired it?

He was making a joke on the word "canonize".

 

[CorporalCaptain]

He was making a joke on the word "canonize".

I know.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

Yeah. Overall, I'd say that they did a very good job, and the 24th century dates hang together very well, since the Okudas were around when most of that stuff was conceived. I just wish they'd consulted more with folks like D.C. Fontana or Nicholas Meyer, who created the 23rd century continuity, and deferred to their interpretations a bit more.

But I suppose it was inevitable that their conjectures would become fact in the absence of any other data. I wonder how the Chronology would have turned out if the 1988 writer's strike hadn't set that 2364 date in stone in "The Neutral Zone"?


I think "corroboration" is a bit strong, since Trek revealing things like the Federation being founded in 2161 or Kirk's retirement spanning from 2282-84 were basically the Okudas making their personal conjectures official. I don't know what a more appropriate word might be, however... "Canonization"?

And heck, I probably would have done the same thing if I were in their shoes.

So if Kirk's retirement spanned those years, how can we work with the line in Generations from the interviewer, "This is the first Starship Enterprise in thirty years without James T. Kirk in command. How do you feel about that?"

So then the Five-Year Mission started in 2252-54?

 

[Christopher]

So if Kirk's retirement spanned those years, how can we work with the line in Generations from the interviewer, "This is the first Starship Enterprise in thirty years without James T. Kirk in command. How do you feel about that?"

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. It's ignoring the captaincies of Pike, Decker, and Spock within that span.

Oh, well. It's hardly unprecedented for reporters not to know what they're talking about.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. It's ignoring the captaincies of Pike, Decker, and Spock within that span.

Oh, well. It's hardly unprecedented for reporters not to know what they're talking about.

Just almost spit out my afternoon coffee on that last sentence! To me, canon is truly set in Trek when it is a line of dialogue or visually on TV or movie screen. While the Okudas have done wonders in organizing the Trek world and gave it a visual identity for years, their dating of some events leaves things a bit skewed, like the Spaceflight Chronology book from 1979-80 (which has the Five-Year Mission in the 22nd Century, if memory serves.)

Voyager mentions 2270 as the end of the Five-Year Mission, so that's when it ended. Using that, I would then put TMP around 2273, TWoK in line with 300 years from release (and truly 15 years from "Space Seed", as mentioned in the movie) in 2282.

So then, Generations would have 1701-B launching in 2294-95, with Kirk retiring in 2292, a few months after TUC.

 

[locutus101]

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. It's ignoring the captaincies of Pike, Decker, and Spock within that span.

Oh, well. It's hardly unprecedented for reporters not to know what they're talking about.

Wasn't Decker replaced almost immediately by Kirk?

 

[KirkusOveractus]

Wasn't Decker replaced almost immediately by Kirk?

At least for the refit time. The line in the extra footage added for ABC has the one crewmember saying that he's been with the ship every minute of the refitting.

 

[wayoung]

Wasn't Decker replaced almost immediately by Kirk?

Yeah, my understanding is that Decker never actually commanded the Enterprise outside of space dock as Kirk took over before it left space dock.

My solution for in universe Canon mistakes? Time travel. There have been so many time travel events we've seen, and likely so many more that we haven't seen, that there is no real timeline. Everytime someone goes back BOOM, butterflies out the wazoo changing everything in the show.

 

[locutus101]

At least for the refit time. The line in the extra footage added for ABC has the one crewmember saying that he's been with the ship every minute of the refitting.

That doesn't make him a captain. That makes him a refitting supervisor.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Yeah, my understanding is that Decker never actually commanded the Enterprise outside of space dock as Kirk took over before it left space dock.

Hey, things can happen in space dock, too. Like bottle show-type episodes?

 

[locutus101]

Yeah, my understanding is that Decker never actually commanded the Enterprise outside of space dock as Kirk took over before it left space dock.

My solution for in universe Canon mistakes? Time travel. There have been so many time travel events we've seen, and likely so many more that we haven't seen, that there is no real timeline. Everytime someone goes back BOOM, butterflies out the wazoo changing everything in the show.

That definitely solves all continuity errors.

 

[locutus101]

Hey, things can happen in space dock, too. Like bottle show-type episodes?

Yeah; like who took that damn monkey wrench?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Yeah; like who took that damn monkey wrench?

Or mysterious infections. Or a murder.