Why the hate for "Profit and Lace" ?

[doubleohfive]

I've seen it bitched about for years on this board. Maybe I'm just not all that discerning when it comes to some things, and granted, I actually haven't seen this particular episode in ages, --probably not since at least 2000 or 2001-- but what's with the hate? What's so bad about it? Why do you not like it?

 

[AdmiralGarak]

but what's with the hate?

It was not funny.

What's so bad about it?

It was not funny.

Why do you not like it?

It was not funny.



Hope that helped.


Okay-- DS9 is not Benny Hill. Doing a story about Quark cross-dressing, and then trying to stretch that idea out to 45 minutes was a terrible idea. (Then again, the "shrinking runabout" & "everybody plays baseball" ideas amazingly turned out well.)

Notably awful moments include--
Old Ferengi pervert trying to rape Quark. Uncomfortable, gross, sexist, and unfunny.

Quark gives his mom a heart attack! HI-LARIOUS! (At least, that's how the episode tries to play it.)

Quark's extorts an employee for sex? That's bad. Employee agrees? Now it's cute! Aww.

 

[Joeman]

I'm generally a fan of DS9's Ferengi episodes, but I gave this one a 5/10, so I thought it was just "OK". I didn't really hate it.

The Lumba thing was kind of funny at first, but overall I just didn't find the episode all that much fun, and got fairly bored with it. There just were not many positive elements in it that really stood out to me.

Little Green Men was much more my speed when it came to a Ferengi episode.

 

[Vulcan Princess]

I hate the episode because I find it to be incredibly sexist. First, after a feminist revolution on Ferenginar, they're still unable to find a replacement businesswoman for Quark's mom after she suffers a heart attack, so Quark has to have a sex change and pretend to be a woman. Then a whole string of sexist stereotypes ensues, culminating with playing sexual harassment for laughs. Then, afterward, Quark is a weepy mess, blaming it on the leftover female hormones.

 

[Myasishchev]

It isn't as bad as people say. That said, it is not very good. It's got a couple good gags, if I recall.

And it's an important piece of Trek lore, believe it or not. It turns out sex reassignment surgery is so easy and painless that you can do it in a couple of hours. Not only don't you need a psychological workup, you don't even have to have a good reason at all, and Starfleet doctors will do it for free, apparently for the lulz.

So, really, it's surprising you don't see more weekend transsexuals.

 

[RandyS]

There was nothing wrong with it.

 

[Eyes]

It's easily at the bottom of the pile of a long list of mediocre Ferengi episodes, and its the only one which either doesn't really have a good reason to be there, or works well enough to be entertaining.

Quark crossdressing is meant to be funny. It ends up being painful, especially when that Sluggo-Cola guy was chasing Quark around the room, and numerous other parts, particularly the fact that not one other Ferengi woman with a head for business could be found.

That being said, it's not as boring as the A-Story of Meridian, but that's about the only part of DS9 that it's better than.

 

[Navaros]

The premise that Quark agrees to have his unit dismembered is insultingly ludicrous and a huge degredation to Quark as a character. P & L is an episode that should be decanonized for that reason alone, if not for others as well.

 

[Trek_princess]

I think that what comes off as sexism is actually a full-blown gender parody. If Ferenginar has experienced a revolution in sexual politics, then naturally there would be many capable female financial advisors - but the male ferengi on the station can't think of any because they are still locked in a patriarchal mindset - they see Ishka as an exception, not a member of a group of financially savvy women.

I don't see this episode as seriously "playing sexual harassment for laughs." After all, the moral of the episode is sexual respect among those in differing positions of power. The comic crux of the episode is that the misogynistic and exploitative Quark is forced to prostitute himself to a lecherous businessman, thus getting a taste of his own medicine. One could argue, what about the end, when Aulora expresses her interest in oomox after all? Isn't that proposing that she never really minded the sexual harassment after all? No; the irony here is that she expresses a sincere interest on her own part, not that she is resigning herself to performing sexual favors to secure her job.

As for the ultra-emotional end scene: I think this is making fun of the stereotype of women as emotional, not confirming it (after all, if female hormones cause this sort of weepiness, why doesn't Quark cry before now? Why don't Kira and Dax break down on a regular basis?). Furthermore, I don't really believe that Quark is suffering from residual female hormones; I think that he is just using that excuse to justify an emotional breakdown to himself and others. It has been a pretty stressful few days for Quark: his treasured cultural mores have been turned upside down, he almost killed his mother, and he was forced to barter sex for political sway. Naturally, he'd be feeling overwhelmed; and, in Quark's mindset, blaming the emotional display on hormones is a way to let out some tension while still maintaining his masculine facade.

I can understand why so many people don't like this episode. It's super silly. I would be embarrassed to show this episode to a friend who had never seen DS9 before. However, I think it's an interesting episode to discuss. I won't call it great or awful, but I will call it very unique LOL.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

So, really, it's surprising you don't see more weekend transsexuals.

You sure that wouldn't actually happen on Risa?

Or what about planets outside the Federation where there's less regulation?

We've also seen species changes accomplished with rather shocking completeness--I mean, seriously, the modifications must've been REALLY extensive if Kira couldn't just take off her clothes in "Second Skin" and figure out she was still Bajoran. Cardassian biotech must be at a VERY high level for that to happen.

 

[AdmiralGarak]

Gender-change must not be too big a deal in the 24th Century. Even Data's cat had a sex change.

 

[happydave]

Doing a story about Quark cross-dressing, and then trying to stretch that idea out to 45 minutes was a terrible idea.

Especially since they'd already basically done the "Quark as a woman" thing once before in Facets.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

It's not funny, it's stupid, it's embarrassing.

And I would never dare to show this particular episode to a person not familiar with Trek fearing that it would scare him/her away forever.

 

[Deckerd]

I've seen it bitched about for years on this board. Maybe I'm just not all that discerning when it comes to some things, and granted, I actually haven't seen this particular episode in ages, --probably not since at least 2000 or 2001-- but what's with the hate? What's so bad about it? Why do you not like it?

Because it was awful.

I love Armin Shimerman and I loved his Quark but he was clearly completely out of his depth in this episode. It was squirmingly awful.

 

[Praxius]

I hate the episode because I find it to be incredibly sexist. First, after a feminist revolution on Ferenginar, they're still unable to find a replacement businesswoman for Quark's mom after she suffers a heart attack, so Quark has to have a sex change and pretend to be a woman. Then a whole string of sexist stereotypes ensues, culminating with playing sexual harassment for laughs. Then, afterward, Quark is a weepy mess, blaming it on the leftover female hormones.

You guys in here do realize we're talking about Feringis whom have been sexist since the dawn of them entering TNG?

It makes sense that they'd have a bit of a difficult time finding a female replacement that was as good as Quark's mom, since most women were forbidden to earn profit and leave the house, or wear clothes for like ever.... thus finding an experienced female in the trade at that time that was as good as Quark's mom would indeed prove difficult at first.

I've always found the Ferengi approach towards women was always sexist, but in a way that showed the viewer "What not to do" because much of it was very blatant with humor.

If anything, I viewed the episode showing that Quark's mom's talents, skills and abilities were hard to replace..... heck, even the Nagus hired her on when it was still illegal because she was that good and helped him a great deal and she was one of the main reasons why women were given the freedoms they were given in the first place.

I never saw the episode as being sexist in a negative manner towards women in general, but a combination of expression towards what women probably had to deal with in our own societies at first when they were given similar rights after so long..... and to show how some men have a problem trying to understand, let alone relate to many of the things women had to (and still do from time to time) go through in societies they had to fight in for so long to get their respective freedoms.

Though I only remember watching that episode through once, I'll be coming up to that episode in the next few days in my DS9 cycle..... so I'm just going from memory.

But I don't believe the episode was ever supposed to be serious, let alone purposely made to offend or demean women in general.

Added:

By the way.... I can't say I fully understand the disgust some show towards this episode where Quark tries to be a female, but nobody mentions the episode where the female ferengi dressed up as a man.... as if it's not sexist for a female to try and "act" like a man, yet it's not ok for a man to "act" like a female, because it's sexist.

Sure the female ferengi was trying to prove a point that females could do just as good as males and was perhaps trying to fight for equality, which she really wasn't since she was perfectly fine keeping her secret hidden until her attraction to Quark starting becoming a problem (thus not the same as Quarks mother outright standing up for her rights) but doesn't anybody else see this little contradiction?

 

[TheGodBen]

By the way.... I can't say I fully understand the disgust some show towards this episode where Quark tries to be a female, but nobody mentions the episode where the female ferengi dressed up as a man.... as if it's not sexist for a female to try and "act" like a man, yet it's not ok for a man to "act" like a female, because it's sexist.

Sure the female ferengi was trying to prove a point that females could do just as good as males and was perhaps trying to fight for equality, which she really wasn't since she was perfectly fine keeping her secret hidden until her attraction to Quark starting becoming a problem (thus not the same as Quarks mother outright standing up for her rights) but doesn't anybody else see this little contradiction?

There's no contradiction. Rules of Acquisition was clearly an episode with an anti-sexist stance, the message of that story was that Ferengi females were just as good as men when it came to business, but that they weren't allowed to prove it because of sexism in their society. The story is clearly based on hundreds, if not thousands, of actual cases from human history where real women were forced to do that.

When has there ever been a case in human history of a man having a sex change because there's no smart women around? It just doesn't happen, largely because women are smarter than us. (But don't tell them that, they'll start getting ideas.)

 

[Praxius]

There's no contradiction. Rules of Acquisition was clearly an episode with an anti-sexist stance, the message of that story was that Ferengi females were just as good as men when it came to business, but that they weren't allowed to prove it because of sexism in their society. The story is clearly based on hundreds, if not thousands, of actual cases from human history where real women were forced to do that.

As mentioned in the part you quoted of mine, I understood the original sorta-message they were trying to give in that episode in regards to equal rights, etc..... but I was trying to touch base with the notion of a female dressing up like the opposite sex, trying to act like the opposite sex and nobody getting offended by the stereo-types displayed..... but when a guy does it, suddenly if any jokes are made or if they express any sort of stereo-type, suddenly its sexist and offensive.

I am not excusing or ignoring what has happened over the many years towards women in our societies, but that was the past, this is the present and if there's to be true equality between sexes, some need to grow a thicker skin and stop thinking everything is an attack on their gender or who they are.

It's like someone from African background continually complaining about the slavery their ancestors went through and giving me drama for it...... they were never a slave, I never oppressed his/her race, nor did anybody in my family line do so.... yet because I'm white, I'm somehow guilty of my races' past crimes and I have to sit there and listen to them gripe about it all day long.

People want equality? Sure, fill yer boots, have fun, goto town..... I can take jokes about my gender, I can take jokes about my race, I can deal with it..... but suddenly if I joke about the opposite sex or make a joke towards another race in an equal/similar fashion, suddenly I'm a racist or suddenly I'm a sexist..... but they aren't??

Equality indeed.

And for the record, I don't make jokes about the opposite sex or a different race, or similar (I just don't find many of them funny)..... I'm not racist or sexist.... but if we all want to really live in a society of equals, then people have to get a grip on their issues with parodies or jokes that might be directed at their race, gender, religious beliefs, etc.... white males sure had to.

When has there ever been a case in human history of a man having a sex change because there's no smart women around?

A bit of an odd question considering the situation we're talking about was based on an alien planet, an alien culture, in a fictional universe.... not real life, real humans, doing this in our own culture today or in the past.

When in our history of mankind did anybody ever get it on with a shape shifter?

It just doesn't happen, largely because women are smarter than us. (But don't tell them that, they'll start getting ideas.)

Funny, I thought we're all supposed to be equal and the only thing that differs our intelligence would be our own experiences and education in our individual lives.

 

[Kai Winn]

I hate the episode because I find it to be incredibly sexist. First, after a feminist revolution on Ferenginar, they're still unable to find a replacement businesswoman for Quark's mom after she suffers a heart attack, so Quark has to have a sex change and pretend to be a woman. Then a whole string of sexist stereotypes ensues, culminating with playing sexual harassment for laughs. Then, afterward, Quark is a weepy mess, blaming it on the leftover female hormones.

one could think an episode like this pleases women, because we can watch a man who for all his life has regarded females as subjects to be exploited turning female, and experiencing what it is like, and the epsiode also marks the break-trough of equal rights for women on ferenginar, but no, not good enough yet. are equal rights the equal appreciation of equal accomplishments, or favouritism of women just because they are women? they could not find a replacement businesswoman for moogi on ferenginar? very much the same like on earth.

 

[Saxman1]

I always looked at this ep as a riff on the classic comedy "Some Like It Hot" and enjoyed it.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Definitely a weak episode. But I never found it as bad as some people make it out to be.

That said, I don't really ever need to watch it again. I have better things to do with my time!