Why the Defiant never "Caught On"?

[bullethead]

While the canon evidence reveals somewhere in the neighborhood of six Defiant-class warships, this doesn't rule out the possibility of more ships having been produced. As for how many more, that remains a mystery. The more I think of it, the more I like the idea of the Defiant fleet being dispersed to a defensive reserve at Federation installations. The only remaining question on my mind is whether all of these ships are fully armed, fully armored, and equipped with a cloaking device. This would be a growing concern if they were indeed mass-produced.

Given that Mirror Terok Nor built one Defiant class ship in a year without properly trained personnel or facilities, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a production run well into the hundreds for defense fleets for major solar systems. Especially after Earth and Betazed got attacked by the Dominion, I could see them stationing a few dozen Defiants in a system for a rapid reaction defense force.

 

[Knight Templar]

I think everyone here is making a huge mistake by equating "small size" with "easy to build".

The compact size of the Defiant might make it even more difficult and expensive to build given that all its capabilities have to be built into a small package.

We're talking about a ship type proven capable of hosing down three or four comparable sized vessels like Klingon BOPs or Jem'hadar fighters with relative ease and disabling ships five times larger (Cardassian Keldon class ships, Federation Excelsior class ships).

 

[bullethead]

I think everyone here is making a huge mistake by equating "small size" with "easy to build".

The compact size of the Defiant might make it even more difficult and expensive to build given that all its capabilities have to be built into a small package.

We're talking about a ship type proven capable of hosing down three or four comparable sized vessels like Klingon BOPs or Jem'hadar fighters with relative ease and disabling ships five times larger (Cardassian Keldon class ships, Federation Excelsior class ships).

In all honesty, most of the stuff seems like it should be easy enough to assemble on its own aside from the warp core, power systems, quantum torpedoes, and warp coils. Most of the Defiant doesn't seem that radically different from other TNG era tech and given that Starfleet would have production lines for that stuff, it seems likely that they could pump out dozens of the things within a year. Besides, the Defiant was supposed to be a prototype for an anti-Borg fleet, so it would probably be designed for ease of construction, since it's basically the A-10 "Warthog" of starships.

 

[Knight Templar]

I think everyone here is making a huge mistake by equating "small size" with "easy to build".

The compact size of the Defiant might make it even more difficult and expensive to build given that all its capabilities have to be built into a small package.

We're talking about a ship type proven capable of hosing down three or four comparable sized vessels like Klingon BOPs or Jem'hadar fighters with relative ease and disabling ships five times larger (Cardassian Keldon class ships, Federation Excelsior class ships).

In all honesty, most of the stuff seems like it should be easy enough to assemble on its own aside from the warp core, power systems, quantum torpedoes, and warp coils. Most of the Defiant doesn't seem that radically different from other TNG era tech and given that Starfleet would have production lines for that stuff, it seems likely that they could pump out dozens of the things within a year. Besides, the Defiant was supposed to be a prototype for an anti-Borg fleet, so it would probably be designed for ease of construction, since it's basically the A-10 "Warthog" of starships.

The pulse phasers on the Defiant have never been seen on any other Starfleet vessel in the ST:TNG era to my knowledge and they seem capable of blasting through the shields of many starships with a single salvo.

That is a capability that is not common in the TNG era.

 

[Timo]

Mirror Terok Nor built one Defiant class ship in a year

...Assuming the passage of time is the same in both universes.

The endcap episodes of that story are stardate-free ones, in the middle of long streaks of stardate-free ones, but their rough separation in the "regular" universe is indeed likely to be about one year. In the Mirror Universe (assuming it's a single one rather than a series of snippets from an infinite selection of Mirror images), there are no clear indications of time passing, no "last year when our Ben Sisko died" or "sixteen months ago when Smiley last visited you". The best we ever get is "Almost a century ago, a Terran starship captain named Kirk accidentally exchanged places..." in "Crossover".

Besides, the Defiant was supposed to be a prototype for an anti-Borg fleet

Not exactly - just "the first ship in what would have been the new Federation battlefleet".

For all we know, she would have been unique in that fleet, with a great variety of ship designs being introduced.

Mass production sounds like the poorest possible solution to the Borg problem anyway. If the Borg adapt to one of the vessels, they have adapted to all of them, making the entire construction effort pointless.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Badger]

The pulse phasers on the Defiant have never been seen on any other Starfleet vessel in the ST:TNG era to my knowledge and they seem capable of blasting through the shields of many starships with a single salvo.

That is a capability that is not common in the TNG era.

The pulse phasers are indeed one of the systems that, according to the Technical Manual, require specialist, non-replicable materials that take a long time to fabricate. In this case, crystals of unusual purity that must be grown in carefully controlled conditions.

As I've stated before, the mirror universe building there own Defiant is implausible. But, IMHO, no more implausible than the Remans building the Scimitar without the Romulans knowing about it.

Perhaps, despite being built to the stolen schematics, the ISS Defiant is not an exact match for the 'real' one. Do we know for certain that the mirror ship was fitted with ablative armour? Could the quantum torpedoes have been stolen from the Cardassians (who had developed such technology in the prime universe, according to VOY, 'Dreadnought')? Are the pulse phasers themselves as effective as the Borg busting weaponry, or are they merely standard weapons modified to fire in pulses rather than beams? Was the warp core a class 7 state of the art design, or was it a more conventional model, set to run beyond recommended safety limits (similar to the Orion ship in 'Journey to Babel', though not quite as extreme)?

And for those systems impossible to get hold of, well, if Smiler could copy the complete schematics of the Federation's most state of the art vessel without any one realizing, maybe he 'acquired' a few spare parts too!

 

[Knight Templar]

You could make the case that the Mirror Universe Defiant while externally identical to the original Defiant (due to Mirror O'Brien stealing the files whe he was in our universe) probably utilizes a great deal of technology stolen from the Klingon/Cardassian Alliance.

In the only two times we see the Mirror Defiant in combat (the second of these being stock footage of the first), while it does use its pulse phasers to destroy two Klingon BOPs, when battling the giant Klingon cruiser it seems to rely on regular, steady beam weapons (standard phasers or maybe even disruptors) a great deal despite firing the pulse phasers on occasion.

In fact, it uses regular beam weapons in this battle heavily while the original Defiant I do not think ever used them.

So it seems obvious that the weapons mix and capabilities of the Mirror Defiant is substantially different from the original.

 

[Timo]

In fact, it uses regular beam weapons in this battle heavily while the original Defiant I do not think ever used them.

The "regular" ship fired a dorsal "conventional" beam at least in the fight in "Paradise Lost", in a situation where the pulse phasers could not be pointed at the enemy. So the weapons mix is not "substantially" different on this basis alone, although there could be key differences otherwise.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GulGoneCrazy]

I think that there is no need to worry about defiant ,they will be produced in much larger numbers when Borg decides to pay a visit to Alpha quadrant again.Defiant is a warship built to fight threats like Borg but it proved good against Dominion forces as well.So it is multi purpose vessel and relatively easy & cheap to built ,so there will be a lot of them as soon new threat for federation emerges.I believe there is around 40 Defiants left ,but a lot of them is about to be constructed in incoming times.

The Sovereign class vessel is extremely complicated to built ,they require special technology.So i believe that there is around 10 Sovereigns left to perform flagship duties while shipyards produce more reliable and cheaper vessels.

Problem with that is that, per Sternbach, the Sovereigns were meant to be the new "workhorse" class, replacing the Excelsiors as they retired.

Did I say that? I don't recall specifying that the Sovereigns were to replace the Excelsiors; I'm not sure I would talk about the design that way. If anything, they would replace the Galaxy class.

Excelsiors are not so called workhorses of the UFP they are simply to outdated for that (Only few refit excelsiors like Lakota can pose a threat to UFP enemies).The Excelsiors are going to be most likely scraped and few or more might be refitted.A single Galor is potential threat for not refitted excelsior as we seen in DS9 fighting scenes,

The workhorses are the well armed Akira and Steamrunner class vessels.They are seen in big numbers in all battles and they did performed well.

The idea that Sovereign should become a workhorse class is very likely impossible unless UFP has gigantic war machine.The design is complicated and too expensive to be produced in hundreds.But if that happens ,just imagine 100 or even 1000 of Sovereigns in service?Even Borg would think twice before messing around with UFP.

 

[Timo]

We haven't seen a Steamrunner perform at all, IIRC. The Borg just kept blowing up those things as if they had no shields whatsoever (other types did somewhat better there), but the Dominion didn't even bother to engage them, and they didn't engage the Dominion. They just sort of flew around, never firing at anything.

Somewhat absurdly, the only types of Starfleet vessel that ever were shown destroying a Dominion ship larger than those tiny bugs were the Defiant and the Galaxy. None of the other types ever scored a visible kill, for whatever reason. In return, there were three leading types of UFP vessel to suffer visible losses: Excelsior, Miranda and Akira. Any one of those three could be declared the "workhorse" in terms of numbers seen, numbers seen fighting, or numbers seen destroyed spectacularly.

As for "well armed", the Akira has lots of torpedo tubes (of which something like four are seen in action - three in pod, one in hull) but only three phaser strips with poor coverage, while the Steamrunner has two visible strips and at least one invisible one but no torpedoes. The Excelsior seems to fare rather well there, with close to thirty phaser emitters and at least two but probably four torpedo tubes.

The design is complicated

Based on what? It doesn't look more complicated than, say, an Akira (if anything, there are more straight lines there, for ease of construction).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

Problem with that is that, per Sternbach, the Sovereigns were meant to be the new "workhorse" class, replacing the Excelsiors as they retired.

Did I say that? I don't recall specifying that the Sovereigns were to replace the Excelsiors; I'm not sure I would talk about the design that way. If anything, they would replace the Galaxy class.

Excelsiors are not so called workhorses of the UFP they are simply to outdated for that (Only few refit excelsiors like Lakota can pose a threat to UFP enemies).The Excelsiors are going to be most likely scraped and few or more might be refitted.A single Galor is potential threat for not refitted excelsior as we seen in DS9 fighting scenes,

The workhorses are the well armed Akira and Steamrunner class vessels.They are seen in big numbers in all battles and they did performed well.

The Excelsior- and Miranda-classes have been referred to by fandom as "workhorses" not so much because they're outstanding warships, but because of their ability to be used for just about anything. There's an idea that both designs are solid multipurpose ships that can be used for exploration, research, defense, and even routine logistical support operations at a moment's notice. Their longevity may be due to both being very mission-flexible designs and having an ability to incorporate new upgrades well into the 24th-Century.

The idea that Sovereign should become a workhorse class is very likely impossible unless UFP has gigantic war machine.The design is complicated and too expensive to be produced in hundreds.

The Sovereign-class may indeed become a workhorse if its used for many purposes other than combat and Starfleet continues a policy of building some steadily larger starships in the future. By the mid 25th-Century, it's possible that the Sovereign-class may exist in fairly large numbers and is dwarfed by several much larger designs.

 

[The Librarian]

The idea that Sovereign should become a workhorse class is very likely impossible unless UFP has gigantic war machine.The design is complicated and too expensive to be produced in hundreds.But if that happens ,just imagine 100 or even 1000 of Sovereigns in service?Even Borg would think twice before messing around with UFP.

The Excelsior was also a super-ship at the time of its launch, and yet by TNG there's hundreds of them running around the place. (And still doing a pretty fine job, too. They don't perform worse than any of the modern ships in the big battle scenes, certainly.)

 

[Hartzilla2007]

It is possible that Romulan collusion with the Dominion early in the war actually voided the treaty anyway.

They weren't colluding they were Neutral.

This was kind of a critical point when Nog and Jake found out into delegitimizing the commander of the Valiant in their eyes.

Jake questioned Waters, Nog did not.

no more implausible than the Remans building the Scimitar without the Romulans knowing about it.

Who outside of the less than honest Shinzon said the Romulans didn't know about it. Seeing as the military was in cohoots with Shinzon the Romulans may have helped him build it and just didn't bother to let the Senate know before they offed them.

 

[Timo]

They weren't colluding they were Neutral.

Which may count as a treaty violation. Perhaps Algeron was a defense pact of sorts, with neither side actually expecting the other to comply? The clauses of mutual defense would only exist to provide a painless pretext for terminating the agreement if there indeed at some point emerged an external military threat the treaty participants would have to tackle for their part.

If Romulus came under attack, it would probably feel more comfortable getting rid of a treaty that imprisoned the Star Empire inside a Neutral Zone than clinging to this treaty and getting nominal Starfleet help, as it could in either case rely on the UFP not seriously considering an attack. If the Feds came under attack, they'd prefer to regain the right to use cloaks, rather than cling to a treaty where Romulans would provide "help" and scurry all around UFP space under that pretext.

Who outside of the less than honest Shinzon said the Romulans didn't know about it.

Not even Shinzon ever said such a thing. All he told Picard was that the ship was built "in a secret base". Which is probably the norm for all Romulan shipbuilding - why have public bases when you can have secret ones?

The ship was probably supposed to be secret from 99% of the Romulan and Reman populations, and 100% of foreign populations, just like any other Romulan weapon. And in practice ended up being secret from about 7% of the Romulan and 0% of the Reman populations and 89% of the foreign ones, just like any other Romulan weapon.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DEWLine]

Which seems to end up being good enough for Romulan purposes most of the time.

 

[Magellan]

Obvious answers may be that the ship is in fact not terribly easy to construct and although it is as powerful as a large ship like an Excelsior or Akira it takes a similar level of resources/time to construct as a larger vessel while performing worse in several respects (scientific/diplomatic mission)

Also while evaluating the performance of the Defiant shouldn't we take into consideration that DS9 was never to consistent with ship abilities and that the Defiant was a hero ship and perhaps a "regular" Defiant class may not be as formidable?

 

[Ghostface1701]

When considering the DS9 Tech manual statement that six Defiant-class vessels were constructed, it reminds me of the initial production run of six Galaxy-class ships. Maybe six is the standard number of ships Starfleet builds of a new class (once out of the prototype NX phase), until they're proven in the field. Once Starfleet sees what their strengths and weaknesses are, they are in a better position to decide how much time and resources they should devote to the class, as well as how they're best deployed.

Consider that we didn't see many Galaxy-class ships until DS9's later seasons, than we saw them in droves. The Dominion war may have been a factor, but I just don't think DS9 (the show) ran long enough for us to see the Defiants really put into service.