Why the Defiant never "Caught On"?

[Ian Keldon]

Problem with that is that, per Sternbach, the Sovereigns were meant to be the new "workhorse" class, replacing the Excelsiors as they retired.

Did I say that? I don't recall specifying that the Sovereigns were to replace the Excelsiors; I'm not sure I would talk about the design that way. If anything, they would replace the Galaxy class.

Ok, just spent about 40-50 minutes searching for the citation. The attribution to you is all over the internet, however, I couldn't find where you originally were supposed to have said it. It seems to stem back to a post you made some time ago on this board, but what with time and old page purges it may have been deleted.

Alternately it may have been comments by John Eaves. One citation to Berman, but I have a hard time believing that one personally.

If you say you didn't say it, I can't prove otherwise at this point. I do seem to remember you saying it in an interview at some point, but I could be incorrect.

 

[Timo]

I had in my mind that the new Praetor asked for Picard personally, for reasons which became obvious, but it's been so long since I saw the film I can't be certain. I

Shinzon was a bit more circumspect there: he arranged for Picard to be the closest (sizeable?) ship at the key moment, which is why Starfleet sent him. That is, Shinzon made sure Picard diverted from his Betazed trip to this location that was sending a positronic signal and was near Romulus.

Of course, that would have meant that Shinzon would need to know a lot about Picard's schedule and synchronize his slave rebellion with Picard's wedding trip...

If the Defiant-class never caught on, how come they could spare one for a training ship?

Because the class was no good for any other use?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[chrinFinity]

I don't know the exact numbers, but the internal volume must be significantly less. There's not much room in the engineering hull that isn't taken up with the propulsion system, hanger deck, main deflector etc, there's no neck section to speak of, and the saucer isn't as large.

Yes but it's possible all they got rid of were the hotel-style amenities, the dolphinarium, the endangered species zoo, the arboretum, cut down to maybe twenty or fewer holodecks... That would still leave them more than twice as much room as they need for things that should actually go on a starship.

Case in point, the E-E has enough room for jeffries tubes you don't have to crawl around in (Picard and Lilly walk through one together in First Contact), and there's room enough for that useless junction with the window that opens directly to space for some reason (as if they ran out of transparent aluminum when they were making that room, unless its express purpose is to allow captains to impress women from the 21st century).

Also, main engineering is a spacious three-stories tall, plenty of room in which for Picard and Data to climb around and defeat the Borg queen with that green fog that turns you inside out.

 

[Knight Templar]

Firstly, the Sovereign is LONGER than the Galaxy by over 40 meters. True her saucer is narrower, but she's not "significantly smaller" by any means.

And being chosen to extend the olive-branch to the Romulans is hardly a "shitty mission".

When the Enterprise-E was first revealed I remember reading in some "behind the scenes" stuff that it was supposed to be only 63% of the mass of the Galaxy class Enterprise-D.

It was also said to be capable of outmanuevering starships less than one half its size at sublight.

 

[The Badger]

The one argument against that is the ease with which the Mirror Universe folks built their own Defiant. That didn't take much time...

A valid point. However, in the Mirror Universe, most women are bisexual, Julian Bashir overcame his difficulties without genetic modification, and Vic Fontaine is not a holographic '50's nightclub owner but a contemporary member of the resistance. It appears that the rules are different over there.

If the Defiant-class never caught on, how come they could spare one for a training ship?

I'm assuming you refer to the Valiant? According to Memory Alpha, the ship was on a shakedown cruise, not a training cruise, albeit one with an exceptionally high number of cadets. That implies the ship had only recently been constructed, and was undergoing testing to ensure it's systems were functional before being assigned to active duty.

As to why it had a crew of mainly cadets, it could be that, with the war on, there were insufficient officers spare to carry out that task. In addition, it may be that Red Squad were being specifically trained to crew Defiant class vessels. Given the cutting edge nature of it's systems, it is possible that the average member of the Fleet is not qualified to effectively crew the ship.

 

[MacLeod]

Firstly, the Sovereign is LONGER than the Galaxy by over 40 meters. True her saucer is narrower, but she's not "significantly smaller" by any means.

And being chosen to extend the olive-branch to the Romulans is hardly a "shitty mission".

When the Enterprise-E was first revealed I remember reading in some "behind the scenes" stuff that it was supposed to be only 63% of the mass of the Galaxy class Enterprise-D.

It was also said to be capable of outmanuevering starships less than one half its size at sublight.

In everday usage mass = weight. All that could mean it uses lighter materials in it's construction than the galaxy. Perhaps they meant to say 63% of the volume of a galaxy class.

 

[The Librarian]

The Sovereign is actually about half the volume of the Galaxy, and is of comparable size to the Ambassador. You can see it pretty clearly on this volumetrics chart, which is based on 3d models. I think it can certainly be considered more of a workhorse than the huge Galaxy and Nebula classes. The fact that it's the same size as the Ambassador may lend credence to this idea. The Ambassador was supposed to replace the Excelsior, but for some reason never caught on in the same huge numbers, so the Sovereign is try number two. Of course, it's possible the Excelsior will keep cruising on alongside the Sovereigns, especially the most recently-built ones, because it can still fulfill a role at an even smaller size.

 

[Tomalak]

I'm assuming you refer to the Valiant? According to Memory Alpha, the ship was on a shakedown cruise, not a training cruise, albeit one with an exceptionally high number of cadets. That implies the ship had only recently been constructed, and was undergoing testing to ensure it's systems were functional before being assigned to active duty.

And of course war hadn't yet broken out. It makes perfect sense to me that it was a shakedown cruise, though Starfleet evidently had high confidence in the abilities of the Red Squad cadets, since there were seemingly only a couple of officers to supervise them. Also their voyage must have been pretty close to the Cardassian border for them to be caught behind the lines.

 

[The Badger]

According to MA the Valiant was on a three month shakedown cruise circumnavigating the Federation. The cadets would run the ship whilst the seven officers would observe and monitor.

The ship was in the Kepla sector, which was over run on the first day of the war. Trapped behind enemy lines, it was attacked by a Cardassian battle cruiser. Although the Valiant prevailed, it was heavily damaged and the officers killed.

 

[blssdwlf]

I don't think the episode supports that it was a "shakedown" cruise when the dialogue called it a "training cruise"...

From "Valiant":

COLLINS: The training cruise was supposed to last three months. We had seven regular officers and a crew of thirty five cadets. The plan was for the cadets to run the ship while the officers observed and critiqued our performance.
JAKE: So this was a training ship. Like the other one, the, er, the Republic.
COLLINS: Not quite. The Republic's an old ship. I don't think she's left the Terran system in fifty years. The Valiant's a state of the art warship. Our mission was to circumnavigate the entire Federation before returning home.
​

 

[Knight Templar]

Wasn't Red Squad called into the field and sent out as part of the Admiral (Robert Foxworths) attempt to control Earth?

I got the idea that they were a bit of an "unofficial" and specialized unit with extra training and opportunities. They also all seemed to have (to a man) a relatively militaristic bent.

 

[The Badger]

I don't think the episode supports that it was a "shakedown" cruise when the dialogue called it a "training cruise"...

Ah, I was looking at the Memory Alpha page for this episode, which calls it a shakedown cruise. I looked for a script but couldn't find one. Thank you for clarifying.

It's still possible, however, that Red Squad were being specifically trained to crew Defiant class ships. And the description of it as a state of the art warship does strongly suggest that this isn't a cheap, easy to mass produce, vessel intended to spam the enemy in large numbers.

 

[starburst]

While we never saw it deployed in numbers it would make sense to as they would likely have a similar impact swarming over larger opponents as the Whitestars had in Babylon 5.

I can see a limited run of these, most being deployed to outposts like DS9 and on patrol where a small and fast 'gunboat' type ship may be required. Others I see being deployed to strategic worlds and areas in small fleets for when they are needed or taking up escort duties.

Building them in small numbers is the most likely, as Starfleet will want to return to a peace time stance of exploration, even if their non warships are now more heavily armed than they were before the war.

 

[Tomalak]

They also all seemed to have (to a man) a relatively militaristic bent.

Quite. They seemed the antithesis of the usual enlightened Starfleet officer. They followed orders unquestionably, with such a zeal that they revealed themselves to ultimately be really, really thick. Few of them even seemed to internally question Watters/Leyton.

 

[starburst]

That is probably a combination of their training at the academy bringing out the militaristic element of Starfleet of you follow your orders without question, combined with the factor of them being Red Squad meaning they each would have ego's the size of the Enterprise-E' s Warp Core!

Being picked for all of the special training assignments would do that, plus they would be regimented into completing the task they are given, something that even a relatively seasoned junior officer would have thought about.

I always wondered what would have happened if someone other than Nog had ended up on the ship, Watters would likely have turned command over to a Captain, but even if it were Sisko or Picard I have a feeling he would have took over the ship again when said Captain turned the Valiant around and headed for home. If it were anyone, even Worf or Riker, I could see him acting the "I'm the Captain" even though they head years more experience just on the technicality of a battlefield rank (which you could argue would be right or wrong). You would have thought they would have learnt after the failed Coup.

As for them in charge of a Defiant class ship, their instructor probably pulled some favours to get the best and the brightest a small state of the art ship to cruise around in, likely as the last of their advanced training before graduation. This sort of thing could happen to an extent all the time (maybe not with their own ship) as in ST09 the best cadets end up on the Enterprise (be it in junior positions).

 

[Wingsley]

While the canon evidence reveals somewhere in the neighborhood of six Defiant-class warships, this doesn't rule out the possibility of more ships having been produced. As for how many more, that remains a mystery. The more I think of it, the more I like the idea of the Defiant fleet being dispersed to a defensive reserve at Federation installations. The only remaining question on my mind is whether all of these ships are fully armed, fully armored, and equipped with a cloaking device. This would be a growing concern if they were indeed mass-produced.

 

[starburst]

Fully armed and armoured most likely, I doubt they would have cloaking devices unless the Romulans changed that part of the treaty since the end of the Dominion War and the events of Nemesis. I have never read the DS9 novels, does the new Defiant have a cloak?

 

[Knight Templar]

Fully armed and armoured most likely, I doubt they would have cloaking devices unless the Romulans changed that part of the treaty since the end of the Dominion War and the events of Nemesis. I have never read the DS9 novels, does the new Defiant have a cloak?

The Federation might've simply done what the U.S. did to the ABM Treaty.

Withdrawn from it and started building.

It is possible that Romulan collusion with the Dominion early in the war actually voided the treaty anyway.

 

[MacLeod]

That is probably a combination of their training at the academy bringing out the militaristic element of Starfleet of you follow your orders without question, combined with the factor of them being Red Squad meaning they each would have ego's the size of the Enterprise-E' s Warp Core!

I always wondered what would have happened if someone other than Nog had ended up on the ship, Watters would likely have turned command over to a Captain, but even if it were Sisko or Picard I have a feeling he would have took over the ship again when said Captain turned the Valiant around and headed for home. If it were anyone, even Worf or Riker, I could see him acting the "I'm the Captain" even though they head years more experience just on the technicality of a battlefield rank (which you could argue would be right or wrong). You would have thought they would have learnt after the failed Coup.

Well in reagrds to Red Squad, Starfleet obviously failed to the learn the lessons of elite squads (Nova Squad) only a few years earlier.

Now it's been a few years since I watched "Valiant" but wasn't it's mission to gather data on a Dominion Battleship and return that information to Starfleet?

 

[Knight Templar]

That is probably a combination of their training at the academy bringing out the militaristic element of Starfleet of you follow your orders without question, combined with the factor of them being Red Squad meaning they each would have ego's the size of the Enterprise-E' s Warp Core!

I always wondered what would have happened if someone other than Nog had ended up on the ship, Watters would likely have turned command over to a Captain, but even if it were Sisko or Picard I have a feeling he would have took over the ship again when said Captain turned the Valiant around and headed for home. If it were anyone, even Worf or Riker, I could see him acting the "I'm the Captain" even though they head years more experience just on the technicality of a battlefield rank (which you could argue would be right or wrong). You would have thought they would have learnt after the failed Coup.

Well in reagrds to Red Squad, Starfleet obviously failed to the learn the lessons of elite squads (Nova Squad) only a few years earlier.

Now it's been a few years since I watched "Valiant" but wasn't it's mission to gather data on a Dominion Battleship and return that information to Starfleet?

That wasn't the original mission of the Valiant. It was mission orders transmitted to the ship by Starfleet after the war broke out. And Starfleet thought there were still adult officers still alive aboard the ship as well.

This was kind of a critical point when Nog and Jake found out into delegitimizing the commander of the Valiant in their eyes.