Why the Change?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by BillJ, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    From David Mack's Desperate Hours:
    Mack painted her as a Human born on Illyria (which has its own alien species, per Enterprise), which sorta conflicts with her being an "Earth woman". Although Greg Cox in "Child of Two Worlds" has her annoyed at being confused with an Earther, again and again (Not Earth, Illyria, she thought irritably. How many times do I have to explain that?).

    She's constantly described as an Illyrian and not human (correct me if I'm wrong!) in the Cox books I have access to, which were all written after Damage, but Mack's retcon seems a suitable fix for that situation.
     
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  2. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Ah, I didn't realize that. Very well, I withdraw my comment.
     
  3. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Is "Why Do Some Fans Think 'THE WOMEN!' Aren't Earth Women?" too complicated? :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  4. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Goo goo goo joob Moderator

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    Or:
    "What the hell was Number One, anyway?"
     
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  5. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    We kinda retconned this earlier in the Legacies trilogy, deciding that that Una's "Illyrians" were descended from a human colony in the Illyrian system, as opposed to the "Illyrians" in the ENTERPRISE ep. But I can still see her being a proud Illyrian who objects to being labeled an Earther just because her distant ancestors came from Earth.

    ("My great- great-grandparents were from the Old Country. I'm an American!")

    In Child of Two Worlds, I was taking my cues from earlier Pike-era novels by Fontana, Peter David, etc., but, yeah, we tweaked that a little in the Legacies books. I confess I didn't realize that ENTERPRISE had introduced a different kind of "Illyrian" until somebody pointed it out to me. I was just going by the previous Pike-era novels and comic books.

    So she's Illyrian of human descent. Just like, say, somebody can be Italian by nationality and human by species. By the twenty-third century, humans have spread out across the quadrant, so a "human" is not necessarily somebody born and raised on Earth, or so I assume.
     
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  6. oberth

    oberth Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    it's off topic of course but is there some sort of organigram for those books. i read two or three in the '80s and those were at least in the german translation horrible. but when i read @Greg Cox ' posts i'm willing to give them a second chance :D
    [​IMG]
     
  7. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I thought she was a Highlander as per Peter David's New Frontier novels.:shrug:
     
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  8. MAGolding

    MAGolding Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    That statement is illogical and inaccurate.

    Number one looks Human, and thus she looks Illyrian. By definition an Illyrian is a native of the place Illyria and/or of the Illyrian tribe or nation. Since Illyria was a ill defined region in the Balkans on and off from ancient times up to the 19th century - there was a Kingdom of Illyria in the Austrian Empire from 1816 to 1849 - anyone who, like Number One, looks like they could possibly be from southeastern Europe looks like an Ilyrian.
     
  9. MAGolding

    MAGolding Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    King Bob! said:


    I just checked the Star Trek Transcripts site:

    In "The Cage", on the Surface of Talos IV, Pike tells the Talosian magistrate:

    The same scene is in "The Menagerie Part 2":

    Therefore audiences all heard Number One described as an Earth Woman since 1966 unless that line was cut out of some of the syndicated versions.

    Greg Cox said:

    If D.C. Fontana described Number One as an extraterrestrial she either made a mistake and forgot that Number One was described as an Earth woman or else had some explanation of how she was both an Earth woman and an extraterrestrial.

    Tim Thomason said:

    That would be a good explanation if canonical. What is the source?

    That statement is illogical and inaccurate.

    Number one looks Human, and thus she looks Illyrian. By definition an Illyrian is a native of the place Illyria and/or of the Illyrian tribe or nation. Since Illyria was a ill defined region in the Balkans on and off from ancient times up to the 19th century - there was a Kingdom of Illyria in the Austrian Empire from 1816 to 1849 - anyone who, like Number One, looks like they could possibly be from southeastern Europe looks like an Ilyrian.
     
  10. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That was a joke. I took the backstory of Michael Burnham, and gave it to Number One and replaced Vulcans with Illyrians (although I made a mistake with regards to the parents' deaths).

    ----

    An important note: It could be that Number One *is* an alien Illyrian (ignoring the Earth women statements), if we understand that that's what Illyrians look like in TOS-era makeup (pre-forehead ridges). Or maybe the Illyrians were also hit hard by the Augment virus. Adding in another alien to the human-heavy TOS crew is a worthy goal, enough to maybe fudge a line here or there from the episode. "Earth women" in context might refer to the Federation/Starfleet/"UESPA/United Earth" operating body of Pike's ship (also referred to as an "Earth ship" in The Menagerie). She's an "Earth woman" in that Illyria falls under the jurisdiction of Earth's government. At least according to Pike. Or maybe he didn't have the inclination to explain the nuances of an alliance government to his Talosian zookeepers.

    Unlikely, but possible.
     
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  11. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    By canon, she is an Earth woman.

    Which doesn't make much sense. Why would they be trying to line up a human and an alien to make children?
     
  12. oberth

    oberth Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    spock?
    [​IMG]
     
  13. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What about Spock? He's a hybrid. That doesn't mean human and Illyrian would successfully create a child mating.
     
  14. oberth

    oberth Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    he needed genetic engeneering to be even alive (no chance in hell that iron- and copper-based blood will allow for a natural born child (charles tucker III & t'pol, anyone?) - therefor 'a child at any cost' will be still a thing; any reason why there shouldn't be other hybrids but spock?
    [​IMG]
     
  15. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You have a ship captured with probably 80 or 90 human women. Why would the Talosians bring one down that isn't biologically compatible and complicate the process?
     
  16. oberth

    oberth Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    you lost me here
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    It makes no sense, scientifically, but, for better or for worse, the Star Trek universe is full of hybrids. We've seen human-Klingons, Klingon-Romulans, Cardassian-Bajorans, Kazon-Cardassians, that horned kid on Voyager, etc. And with no genetic engineering required. I think we just have to go with it.

    As for the "Earth women" line, I like the idea that, in a tense life-or-death confrontation, Pike just simplified things to get straight to the point. He was facing off against hostile aliens who had abducted members of his crew and threatened his ship, not filling out a census report on the ethnic breakdown of his crew. It was not the time to split hairs on whether Number One was technically an "Earth woman" or not. :)

    There's a quote from Saki that I love: "An ounce on inaccuracy saves a ton of explanation." That may apply here.
     
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  18. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Goo goo goo joob Moderator

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    All indications in her actual single appearance are that she's a human female. There's no indication otherwise. What, a human female can't be preciously brilliant and emotionally withdrawn?
     
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  19. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    On the other hand, the Star Trek universe, particularly as seen on TOS, is full of alien species that look pretty much identical to Earth people, many of whom don't appear to be descendants of Earth people. See "A Private Little War," "Return of the Archons," "All Our Yesterdays," "Blink of an Eye," "Mark of Gideon," "The Cloud Minders," "Elaan of Troyius," "Bread and Circuses," "A Piece of the Action," "Wolf in the Fold," etc, etc.

    STAR TREK had not yet gotten into the habit of putting bumps on actors' faces to indicate that they're not from Earth, so the fact that Number One looks perfectly human doesn't necessarily mean she's from Earth. The Iconians and Argellians and Zarabeth and Elaan all looked entirely human, too.
     
  20. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Goo goo goo joob Moderator

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    But that bit of context is outweighed by (a) her being specifically described as an Earth female, and (b) that the Talosians' M.O. was breeding pairs from the same species.