Why switch to Kirk from Pike?

[trevanian]

Shatner a better actor than Jeffrey Hunter? Don't think so. Hunter was Jesus Christ in the big-budget Hollywood movie, The King of Kings.

And Shat played the brother of Yul Brynner and Richard Basehart in KARAMAZOV, so what? Hunter was probably cast as Christ because of the eyes (certainly not for resemblance to real guy), not for acting chops, and if you really want to see Shat in fine form, in a role that really showcases his abilities (before he started trotting them out whether they were needed or not and with alarming regularity, which happened before TREK IMO), watch THE INTRUDER, in which he is spectacularly good.

 

[Shatmandu]

(About "Raintree" I find myself not quite so enthusiastic. )

He ended up using "Raintree" as the navigator's name in 'The Omega Glory' first draft, the one written as a possible second pilot. Lots of interesting differences in that one.

Joe, E-Plebbing his Neesta

 

[Red Ranger]

Shatner a better actor than Jeffrey Hunter? Don't think so. Hunter was Jesus Christ in the big-budget Hollywood movie, The King of Kings.

And Shat played the brother of Yul Brynner and Richard Basehart in KARAMAZOV, so what? Hunter was probably cast as Christ because of the eyes (certainly not for resemblance to real guy), not for acting chops, and if you really want to see Shat in fine form, in a role that really showcases his abilities (before he started trotting them out whether they were needed or not and with alarming regularity, which happened before TREK IMO), watch THE INTRUDER, in which he is spectacularly good.

Maybe I'll check out The Intruder some day. But the role you mentioned Shatner played in Karamazov isn't the lead role. Is he the star of The Intruder? -- RR

 

[Noname Given]

As for destroying the pilot footage... no other pilot had warranted a network to request a second pilot in the history of television before this...

Actually, that's a myth. Both Lost in Space and Gilligan's Island had second pilots ordered and produced before CBS purchased the shows. Even GR's comments on the situation is that it was "virtually unheard of..."; but Star Trek was not the first show in TV history to have a second pilot ordered.

As for the reason for the change: As I recall the story, it was Jeffery Hunter's wife who was the reason he didn't stay for the series. At the time Hunter's feature film career was opening up; and his wife flt that doing ANY series on television would hurt his chances of getting work on the big screen; and there was also the fact that it was science fiction; and that in itself was 'beneath him'. Thus when the first pilot didn't sell, he was no loger commited to sticking with the project.

 

[trevanian]

Shatner a better actor than Jeffrey Hunter? Don't think so. Hunter was Jesus Christ in the big-budget Hollywood movie, The King of Kings.

And Shat played the brother of Yul Brynner and Richard Basehart in KARAMAZOV, so what? Hunter was probably cast as Christ because of the eyes (certainly not for resemblance to real guy), not for acting chops, and if you really want to see Shat in fine form, in a role that really showcases his abilities (before he started trotting them out whether they were needed or not and with alarming regularity, which happened before TREK IMO), watch THE INTRUDER, in which he is spectacularly good.

Maybe I'll check out The Intruder some day. But the role you mentioned Shatner played in Karamazov isn't the lead role. Is he the star of The Intruder? -- RR

I mentioned KARAMAZOV as an indication of being cast in a 'big' movie, not a big role. But yeah, he is the lead in INTRUDER, a malevolent and compelling character that really draws on everything he does as an actor ... it makes me wish he'd done ANDERSONVILLE before TREK, because I think he might have been memorable in it, instead of Kirk with square sideburns (Shatner is just about the only thing I dislike about ANDERSONVILLE, I really wish somebody had a recording of Scott acting it in addition to directing it.)

 

[nx1701g]

Shatner a better actor than Jeffrey Hunter? Don't think so. Hunter was Jesus Christ in the big-budget Hollywood movie, The King of Kings.

OT: Every time I get a reminder of that I can't help but think of that episode of Family Guy where Stewie plays Jesus and mentions Jeffrey Hunter and Star Trek.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Hunter was certainly a more successful screen actor than Shatner; the Shat wound up doing a lot of television at a time when actors whose careers were moving forward in film avoided the medium.

 

[Christopher]

Actually, that's a myth. Both Lost in Space and Gilligan's Island had second pilots ordered and produced before CBS purchased the shows. Even GR's comments on the situation is that it was "virtually unheard of..."; but Star Trek was not the first show in TV history to have a second pilot ordered.

Not exactly. Strictly speaking, there's a difference between a pilot and a first episode. A pilot is a demo reel for the series, a tool for selling it to the network. In the case of Lost in Space, the original pilot succeeded in selling the show to the network, but then, after the network had ordered production to begin, the show was restructured in a way that required breaking up the pilot footage across four of the first five episodes.* In the case of Gilligan's Island, the original pilot failed to win over the network, but Sherwood Schwartz then made a different cut that was closer to what he wanted (and added the famous theme song) and had it screened for test audiences, whose phenomenally strong reactions finally convinced CBS to buy the show. Again, it was only after the show had been sold that the network ordered changes that led to the original pilot not being used as the premiere episode (with much of it being cut into a flashback episode later in the season).**

The Star Trek case is very different. Saying "We're buying your show, now we want you to make these changes and give us a new/altered first episode" is one thing. Saying "We're not buying your show, but we're willing to pay you to make a totally new attempt to sell it to us a second time" is a whole other thing. Never before had a network footed the bill for a whole second pilot of a show they hadn't even bought yet.

*Source: James Van Hise, Lost in Space 25th Anniversary Tribute Book (Pioneer, 1990), p. 7
**Source: Joey Green, The Unofficial Gilligan's Island Handbook (Warner, 1988), pp. 5-7

 

[Hambone]

"Pike" is a slang word for chickening out, which doesn't seem suitable for a starship captain.[/url]

I'm not sure that it had that connotation in the 1960s.

Sure it did. I was born in 1960, and "piker" was a common term for someone who bailed out fast.

 

[Green Shirt]

Shatner a better actor than Jeffrey Hunter? Don't think so. Hunter was Jesus Christ in the big-budget Hollywood movie, The King of Kings.

Red Ranger

Oh God, could you imagine Shatner in that role?

"You betrayed me Judas?!?!?",

(pause)I'll, (pause)I'll, kill you.

"JUDDDDDDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!"

 

[trevanian]

Shatner a better actor than Jeffrey Hunter? Don't think so. Hunter was Jesus Christ in the big-budget Hollywood movie, The King of Kings.

Red Ranger

Oh God, could you imagine Shatner in that role?

"You betrayed me Judas?!?!?",

(pause)I'll, (pause)I'll, kill you.

"JUDDDDDDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!"

Not to take anything away from Mr. Hunter, whom I will always remember with some fondness from his starring turn in DIMENSION 5, which was released during TOS original run, but if you've ever seen his wild-eyed portrayal of youthful part-native-american excitement in THE SEARCHERS, you'll know that Hunter's OTT moments resonate at an as-upsetting resonance as the worst of Shatner's (maybe moreso, since he is quiet most of the time, so the overacting really pops.)

then again, I guess that is what John Ford wanted, cuz he'd've hammered Hunter down to something else if he didn't want that performance (which I guess is also true of Shatner's work in TWOK and SFS, where directors worked with him to deliver the memorable and infamous moments there.)

 

[Christopher]

Despite Shatner's reputation, which has largely been exaggerated by stand-up comic/impressionists over the decades, if you look at Shatner's work pre-ST, and even in much of ST itself, you'll see he's a much more naturalistic and understated actor than people assume. The problem is that people take his more extreme moments and assume they're his standard.

And as someone remarked before, Kirk was originally conceived as a character very much like Pike, a driven, dedicated, solitary commander. You can see that clearly in a lot of first-season episodes.

 

[Brian]

Roddenberry AGONIZED over the name of the captain character. He prepared a huge list after researching what he thought were powerful characters and deciding which letters and sounds they most often had in common.

He probably decided that "James T. Kirk" was a stronger name more befitting a captain of a starship. J, T, and K are good, strong letters that fit a hero or leading character well.

I remember reading that somewhere, one of the "making of" books, perhaps, or someone's autobiography. The source I read singled out the "J" and "K" sounds as giving a name a strong, heroic sound.

Hence, in the Roddenberry era, we had:

James T. Kirk
Jean-Luc Picard

They even followed the tradition after Gene's passing:

Benjamin Sisko
Kathryn Janeway

Then they softened the sound of the captain's name for Jonathan Archer. Maybe that's ultimately what was wrong with Enterprise. If he'd had a strong "K" sound in his name, he probably never would have speechified about gazelles.

 

[Red Ranger]

Shatner a better actor than Jeffrey Hunter? Don't think so. Hunter was Jesus Christ in the big-budget Hollywood movie, The King of Kings.

Red Ranger

Oh God, could you imagine Shatner in that role?

"You betrayed me Judas?!?!?",

(pause)I'll, (pause)I'll, kill you.

"JUDDDDDDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!"

Not to take anything away from Mr. Hunter, whom I will always remember with some fondness from his starring turn in DIMENSION 5, which was released during TOS original run, but if you've ever seen his wild-eyed portrayal of youthful part-native-american excitement in THE SEARCHERS, you'll know that Hunter's OTT moments resonate at an as-upsetting resonance as the worst of Shatner's (maybe moreso, since he is quiet most of the time, so the overacting really pops.)

then again, I guess that is what John Ford wanted, cuz he'd've hammered Hunter down to something else if he didn't want that performance (which I guess is also true of Shatner's work in TWOK and SFS, where directors worked with him to deliver the memorable and infamous moments there.)

Ha! Shatner as Jesus:

"ONE . . . OF YOUUUU . . . WILLL . . . DE-NYYY . . . MEEEEE!"

 

[trevanian]

Shatner as Jesus:

"ONE . . . OF YOUUU . . . WILL . . . DE-NYYY ME!"

I

Alright, I'll play.

Jesus to the moneylenders doing his civil uprising thing:

I ...have had... enough of YOU!

(could also use that when he cries out to father on the cross, if you're so inclined.)

 

[Red Ranger]

Shatner a better actor than Jeffrey Hunter? Don't think so. Hunter was Jesus Christ in the big-budget Hollywood movie, The King of Kings.

Red Ranger

Oh God, could you imagine Shatner in that role?

"You betrayed me Judas?!?!?",

(pause)I'll, (pause)I'll, kill you.

"JUDDDDDDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!"

Not to take anything away from Mr. Hunter, whom I will always remember with some fondness from his starring turn in DIMENSION 5, which was released during TOS original run, but if you've ever seen his wild-eyed portrayal of youthful part-native-american excitement in THE SEARCHERS, you'll know that Hunter's OTT moments resonate at an as-upsetting resonance as the worst of Shatner's (maybe moreso, since he is quiet most of the time, so the overacting really pops.)

then again, I guess that is what John Ford wanted, cuz he'd've hammered Hunter down to something else if he didn't want that performance (which I guess is also true of Shatner's work in TWOK and SFS, where directors worked with him to deliver the memorable and infamous moments there.)

I forgot to mention Hunter's performance in The Searchers. Most critics looked favorably on his portrayal, saying he held his own against the brash, larger-than-life John Wayne.

And, in fairness, Hunter had a couple of OTT parts in The Cage. I mean, who can forget, "You turn this illusion off or I'll TWIST YOUR HEAD OFF!" Or, "Is your blood red like ours? I'M GOING TO FIND OUT!"

So I'm sure he would have hammed it up if he were the actual lead in ST.

Red Ranger

(Note: Sorry for the repetition. Didn't think I posted anything before. Ooopps!)

 

[trevanian]

Oh God, could you imagine Shatner in that role?

"You betrayed me Judas?!?!?",

(pause)I'll, (pause)I'll, kill you.

"JUDDDDDDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!"

Not to take anything away from Mr. Hunter, whom I will always remember with some fondness from his starring turn in DIMENSION 5, which was released during TOS original run, but if you've ever seen his wild-eyed portrayal of youthful part-native-american excitement in THE SEARCHERS, you'll know that Hunter's OTT moments resonate at an as-upsetting resonance as the worst of Shatner's (maybe moreso, since he is quiet most of the time, so the overacting really pops.)

then again, I guess that is what John Ford wanted, cuz he'd've hammered Hunter down to something else if he didn't want that performance (which I guess is also true of Shatner's work in TWOK and SFS, where directors worked with him to deliver the memorable and infamous moments there.)

I forgot to mention Hunter's performance in The Searchers. Most critics looked favorably on his portrayal, saying he held his own against the brash, larger-than-life John Wayne.

And, in fairness, Hunter had a couple of OTT parts in The Cage. I mean, who can forget, "You turn this illusion off or I'll TWIST YOUR HEAD OFF!" Or, "Is your blood red like ours? I'M GOING TO FIND OUT!"

So I'm sure he would have hammed it up if he were the actual lead in ST.

Red Ranger

(Note: Sorry for the repetition. Didn't think I posted anything before. Ooopps!)

I dunno. If you have ever read SHATNER WHERE NO MAN, there is a 40 page chapter that is 'lunch with Shatner & Nimoy' and in it, Nimoy seems to go on at length about how hard it would have been to make Spock work while playing against Hunter, because Hunter's style was so submerged (esp compared to Shat.)

I think it is part of the same problem that killed the Spock/Picard stuff on TNG ... you've got all these recessive folks together, and nobody does a good job of stepping up (Stewart IMO murders the cowboy diplomacy bit.)

 

[EEE]

I do seem to recall they did offer the role to Jeffrey Hunter, but he was committed to a Hollywood project at the time.

Mrs Hunter told him not to take it because he was a better actor who'd be wasted on TV, IIRC.

According to several of the books, her part in the switch was more powerful in that she convinced the powers that be, that they didn't want to deal with her through an entire series.

"Pike" is a slang word for chickening out, which doesn't seem suitable for a starship captain.[/url]

I'm not sure that it had that connotation in the 1960s.

Sure it did. I was born in 1960, and "piker" was a common term for someone who bailed out fast.

Funny, in my neck of the woods it was applied to one who isn't willing to gamble. Not so much willing to run away as you grew up with, but not willing to get into a situation that required running away.

Of course, having or not having the R at the end is a huge difference... with it, they're chicken. Without it, the name implies the weapon.

 

[Red Ranger]

Not to take anything away from Mr. Hunter, whom I will always remember with some fondness from his starring turn in DIMENSION 5, which was released during TOS original run, but if you've ever seen his wild-eyed portrayal of youthful part-native-american excitement in THE SEARCHERS, you'll know that Hunter's OTT moments resonate at an as-upsetting resonance as the worst of Shatner's (maybe moreso, since he is quiet most of the time, so the overacting really pops.)

then again, I guess that is what John Ford wanted, cuz he'd've hammered Hunter down to something else if he didn't want that performance (which I guess is also true of Shatner's work in TWOK and SFS, where directors worked with him to deliver the memorable and infamous moments there.)

I forgot to mention Hunter's performance in The Searchers. Most critics looked favorably on his portrayal, saying he held his own against the brash, larger-than-life John Wayne.

And, in fairness, Hunter had a couple of OTT parts in The Cage. I mean, who can forget, "You turn this illusion off or I'll TWIST YOUR HEAD OFF!" Or, "Is your blood red like ours? I'M GOING TO FIND OUT!"

So I'm sure he would have hammed it up if he were the actual lead in ST.

Red Ranger

(Note: Sorry for the repetition. Didn't think I posted anything before. Ooopps!)

I dunno. If you have ever read SHATNER WHERE NO MAN, there is a 40 page chapter that is 'lunch with Shatner & Nimoy' and in it, Nimoy seems to go on at length about how hard it would have been to make Spock work while playing against Hunter, because Hunter's style was so submerged (esp compared to Shat.)

I think it is part of the same problem that killed the Spock/Picard stuff on TNG ... you've got all these recessive folks together, and nobody does a good job of stepping up (Stewart IMO murders the cowboy diplomacy bit.)

An interesting observation about Hunter's more reserved portrayal of a starship commander. I wonder if that's why Nimoy shouts so much in the first piliot and in some of the early eps like The Corbomite Maneuver.

I think they would have mellowed out Pike as the series went on, just as they made Picard less crusty and grumpy than he was in TNG's first season.

Definitely agree with you on that "cowboy diplomacy" line, one of my favorite from that whole two-parter.

Red Ranger

 

[Christopher]

I remember reading that somewhere, one of the "making of" books, perhaps, or someone's autobiography. The source I read singled out the "J" and "K" sounds as giving a name a strong, heroic sound.

...

Then they softened the sound of the captain's name for Jonathan Archer. Maybe that's ultimately what was wrong with Enterprise. If he'd had a strong "K" sound in his name, he probably never would have speechified about gazelles.

Jonathan Arker? Didn't 'e battle Count Dracula?

Actually the character was originally going to be called Jackson Archer (which I assume is why one of our TrekBBS members has that username). So there was a K sound there. Presumably they had to change it for legal reasons.