Why Starfleet changes uniform styles so bloody often

[The Wormhole]

The "no military" thing reflects the attitudes of the public towards the military in the 1970s/1980s.

Partially, yes. Certainly the public's negative opinion towards the military in the US after Vietnam played a part in Phase 2/TMP's decision to downplay the military nature of Starfleet in comparison to TOS. However, it was after Roddenberry was removed from power over the Trek movies following TMP that he began claiming Starfleet was never a military, and even then only as a means to discredit Nick Meyer and his militaristic interpretation of Starfleet.

Then when TNG premiered, Roddenberry for some reason went out of his way to hate the military in general, as reflected when he banned Diane Carey from writing anymore Trek novels all because she dedicated a TNG novel she wrote to a friend of hers killed in military service, a ban which wasn't lifted until after Roddenberry himself died.

 

[Orphalesion]

If I remember correctly when DS9 was released there was the idea that they had different uniforms form TNG because they were working on a Space Station and not on a ship. So the idea was that it wasn't so much that Starfleet updated their uniforms, but that there were just different uniforms for people serving on ships and people serving on space stations.
And that's also reflected in DS9, when personnel from a ship shows up, they will wear the TNG uniforms.

It's just that Voyager threw that idea out of the window for some reason.

 

[The Wormhole]

If I remember correctly when DS9 was released there was the idea that they had different uniforms form TNG because they were working on a Space Station and not on a ship. So the idea was that it wasn't so much that Starfleet updated their uniforms, but that there were just different uniforms for people serving on ships and people serving on space stations.
And that's also reflected in DS9, when personnel from a ship shows up, they will wear the TNG uniforms.

It's just that Voyager threw that idea out of the window for some reason.

It wasn't so much that Voyager threw the idea out, but rather Generations which threw a monkey wrench into things. The original plan was to introduce new uniforms in Generations, with the intent being that these would replace the TNG uniforms as the "starship uniform" and would be worn on Voyager, as well as any starship crews that visit DS9. Presumably, Sisko would also switch to that uniform when he visited Earth in Homefront/Paradise Lost. But then the decision was made at the last minute not to use those uniforms in Generations, resulting in that movie showing a weird combination of both the TNG and DS9 uniforms being used on the Enterprise D. And depending on who you listen to, Voyager chose the DS9 uniforms over the TNG ones either because they were "more modern" or because it was felt the characters looked better in the DS9 uniforms than they did in the TNG ones.

 

[Orphalesion]

And depending on who you listen to, Voyager chose the DS9 uniforms over the TNG ones either because they were "more modern" or because it was felt the characters looked better in the DS9 uniforms than they did in the TNG ones.

But that means Voyager abolished the idea that one set of uniforms was for ships and one was for stations.

 

[BillJ]

But that means Voyager abolished the idea that one set of uniforms was for ships and one was for stations.

Star Trek: Generations did that. With the Enterprise crew transitioning to the DS9 variant during the film. Picard, Riker, Data and LaForge all wore them at some point in the film.

 

[Orphalesion]

Star Trek: Generations did that. With the Enterprise crew transitioning to the DS9 variant during the film. Picard, Riker, Data and LaForge all wore them at some point in the film.

But there was already a ship using the Ds9 uniforms: Voyager. So Voyager did it.
Or does Voyager take place after Generations?

 

[BillJ]

But there was already a ship using the Ds9 uniforms: Voyager. So Voyager did it.
Or does Voyager take place after Generations?

From a Stardate point of view? I'm not sure. But the series premiered roughly two months after Star Trek: Generations was released.

EDIT: Looks like Generations (48632.4) was dated after the beginning of Voyager (48315.6).

http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/101.htm

http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie7.html

 

[J.T.B.]

The "no military" thing reflects the attitudes of the public towards the military in the 1970s/1980s. Remember, this was pre-Desert Storm with all its yellow ribbons and Viet Nam still cast a long shadow. M*A*S*H ran for eleven seasons on that anti-military message. Movies like Apocalypse Now and Platoon didn't exactly extol any military positives

But the US military was definitely on a media upswing in the '80s. Vietnam was being rehabilitated with movies like First Blood, Rambo and Uncommon Valor and on TV with The A-Team and Magnum P.I. There were movies that cheered for the contemporary military like Top Gun, Iron Eagle and Heartbreak Ridge. Military units and top brass took a much more visible role in government and official events, even the US Surgeon-General started wearing a uniform to work. My impression has always been that Roddenberry's "pacifist" bent in TNG was a reaction to a perceived militarization in the US during the Reagan years.

If I remember correctly when DS9 was released there was the idea that they had different uniforms form TNG because they were working on a Space Station and not on a ship.

Which is kind of an odd idea itself. Were the day-to-day duties on DS9 really that different from those on the Enterprise D?

 

[Orphalesion]

But the US military was definitely on a media upswing in the '80s. Vietnam was being rehabilitated with movies like First Blood, Rambo and Uncommon Valor and on TV with The A-Team and Magnum P.I. There were movies that cheered for the contemporary military like Top Gun, Iron Eagle and Heartbreak Ridge. Military units and top brass took a much more visible role in government and official events, even the US Surgeon-General started wearing a uniform to work. My impression has always been that Roddenberry's "pacifist" bent in TNG was a reaction to a perceived militarization in the US during the Reagan years.

I agree.
I don't enjoy 80s action movies (or, really any action movies unless there's a heavy scifi bent to them), but even I know that there's heaps of them that feature a soldier/ex soldier as the hero.
While I wasn't around for the 80s, form what I've seen of the media from back then the big thing was being anti-nuclear weapons, not anti-military.

 

[The Wormhole]

But there was already a ship using the Ds9 uniforms: Voyager. So Voyager did it.
Or does Voyager take place after Generations?

Well, Voyager premiered after Generations. Though if you want to stick to an in-universe perspective, Voyager would not have been the ship to "abolish" this idea, since the Equinox crew were also wearing the DS9 uniforms, and they got stranded in the Delta Quadrant before Voyager was even launched.

 

[Lord Garth]

But the US military was definitely on a media upswing in the '80s. Vietnam was being rehabilitated with movies like First Blood, Rambo and Uncommon Valor and on TV with The A-Team and Magnum P.I. There were movies that cheered for the contemporary military like Top Gun, Iron Eagle and Heartbreak Ridge. Military units and top brass took a much more visible role in government and official events, even the US Surgeon-General started wearing a uniform to work. My impression has always been that Roddenberry's "pacifist" bent in TNG was a reaction to a perceived militarization in the US during the Reagan years.

I agree.
I don't enjoy 80s action movies (or, really any action movies unless there's a heavy scifi bent to them), but even I know that there's heaps of them that feature a soldier/ex soldier as the hero.
While I wasn't around for the 80s, form what I've seen of the media from back then the big thing was being anti-nuclear weapons, not anti-military.

Yup.

Top Gun, Aliens, Commando, First Blood, Hot Shots (technically 1991), Red Dawn, Predator, Stripes...

TNG was a reaction to what else was being shown at the time. They went out of their way to make Starfleet not seem military to counter all of that. It was the same as what they did with the Ferengi. The '80s were all about materialism. So Gene Roddenberry used the Ferengi to show how hideous it really was. Where society zigged, he decided to zag.

 

[mike hill]

Yup.

Top Gun, Aliens, Commando, First Blood, Hot Shots (technically 1991), Red Dawn, Predator, Stripes...

TNG was a reaction to what else was being shown at the time. They went out of their way to make Starfleet not seem military to counter all of that. It was the same as what they did with the Ferengi. The '80s were all about materialism. So Gene Roddenberry used the Ferengi to show how hideous it really was. Where society zigged, he decided to zag.

And then (in DS9) they just became comedic, greedy shopkeepers.
I have often thought that with good writers and directors who would stress the very worst of capitalism, they could have been an awsome enemy. Stripping planetry resources with no respect for it's ecosystem, processing plants pouring toxins into the air, slavery or at least virtual slavery through the "company store" system, oppressed "business partners".
Coming across a stripped planet, in such a setting, our heroes could wonder if it was the Borg or Ferengi?
Unlike many I was not put off by their gesticulating and high jinks in TLO. Surely alien body language should be different to ours?
Another wasted opportunity!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Does Starfleet answer to he Federation Council, and the Federation President?

Maybe?

The Leader of each world is actual power, the Federation Councillor for that world is a minor proxy.

I think that Starfleet is autonomous of the Federation, the council, the UFP President and the local governments of member worlds.

They only do what they are told so long as it seems like every one is cool.

They may be a Military, but they are not the Federation's military.

2. The rapid change in uniforms might be to monitor timetravellers, like US currency is monitored for time travellers today by the secret service?

 

[Shawnster]

I think that Starfleet is autonomous of the Federation, the council, the UFP President and the local governments of member worlds.

On screen evidence is clear Starfleet is subordinate to the civilian authority.

TOS Ambassador Robert Fox was a civilian who was able to override Kirk's objection to approach Eminar VII
TOS Galactic High Commissioner Ferris was a civilian who was able to override Kirk's decisions and have the Enterprise deliver supplies to New Paris colonies.
ST:IV Kirk and crew are tried by the Federation Council, not Starfleet.
TNG Civilian authority mandated warp speed limits in certain parts of the galaxy and the Starfleet vessel Enterprise needed permission to exceed those limits.

 

[BK613]

But the US military was definitely on a media upswing in the '80s. Vietnam was being rehabilitated with movies like First Blood, Rambo and Uncommon Valor and on TV with The A-Team and Magnum P.I. There were movies that cheered for the contemporary military like Top Gun, Iron Eagle and Heartbreak Ridge. Military units and top brass took a much more visible role in government and official events, even the US Surgeon-General started wearing a uniform to work. My impression has always been that Roddenberry's "pacifist" bent in TNG was a reaction to a perceived militarization in the US during the Reagan years.

Yup.

Top Gun, Aliens, Commando, First Blood, Hot Shots (technically 1991), Red Dawn, Predator, Stripes...

TNG was a reaction to what else was being shown at the time. They went out of their way to make Starfleet not seem military to counter all of that. It was the same as what they did with the Ferengi. The '80s were all about materialism. So Gene Roddenberry used the Ferengi to show how hideous it really was. Where society zigged, he decided to zag.

You guys are kidding, right? The majority of what you listed were about rogue elements, retired killing machines, psycho vets or otherwise maverick, anti-rule protagonists. The mainstream military in those works are portrayed as heavies, foils, uncaring bureaucrats or incompetent soldiers. They convicted you for crimes you didn't commit, they left you behind in need of rescue (and refused to make the attempt), they had done (or were doing) nefarious actions that sets up the plot, and.or otherwise they were incompetent enough to get their asses kicked.

FFs, Stripes was lampooning the military.

 

[Valin]

Then when TNG premiered, Roddenberry for some reason went out of his way to hate the military in general, as reflected when he banned Diane Carey from writing anymore Trek novels all because she dedicated a TNG novel she wrote to a friend of hers killed in military service, a ban which wasn't lifted until after Roddenberry himself died.

Really! I wasn't aware of that. I wondered why she stopped writing Trek novels; she was one of my favorites.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Really! I wasn't aware of that. I wondered why she stopped writing Trek novels; she was one of my favorites.

Neither was I. Is there a source to read up on this?

 

[UssGlenn]

Voyager would not have been the ship to "abolish" this idea, since the Equinox crew were also wearing the DS9 uniforms, and they got stranded in the Delta Quadrant before Voyager was even launched.

That was a massive missed opportunity to put them in the Equinox Crew in TNG uniforms, it would really drive home how long they had been there. I'm sure they still had the uniforms in storage.

 

[The Wormhole]

Really! I wasn't aware of that. I wondered why she stopped writing Trek novels; she was one of my favorites.

That incident itself isn't why she's no longer writing Trek novels. As I said, that ban was lifted after Roddenberry died, and she then had a steady batch of Trek novels published throughout 1992-2001. As of 2001 she was banned from writing Trek novels again, this time at the request of Brannon Braga for reasons which were more her own fault.

Her novelization of Enterprise's Broken Bow is basically a scathing criticism of the script, though the part that really landed her in trouble was the scene where Reed and Mayweather are at the nightclub looking at the alien girls with frog tongues. In the novelization, a third person narrative description of the scene from Reed or Mayweather's perspective (I forget which) describes the scene as "the kind of stupidity only a depraved loner could think up, and it was going on right in front of us." Braga viewed that as a personal attack and filed a complaint with Pocket Books over it, resulting in Carey being banned from writing further Trek novels. A ban which hasn't been lifted yet.

Is there a source to read up on this?

Roddenberry banning Carey over the dedication in the TNG novel Ghost Ship is covered in the book Voyages of the Imagination, basically a companion of Star Trek novels. Braga complaining about Carey's Broken Bow novelization resulting in her banning is discussed in an interview between he and Rick Berman included on the Enterprise season 1 Blu-ray.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Roddenberry banning Carey over the dedication in the TNG novel Ghost Ship is covered in the book Voyages of the Imagination, basically a companion of Star Trek novels. Braga complaining about Carey's Broken Bow novelization resulting in her banning is discussed in an interview between he and Rick Berman included on the Enterprise season 1 Blu-ray.

Thanks for the info.

describes the scene as "the kind of stupidity only a depraved loner could think up

If I had a nickel for every time I've show myself in the foot like this...well, I'd have at least a couple of dollars.