Why Star Trek Nemesis failed to reach the heights of TWOK

[The Overlord]

Its no secret that Star Trek Nemesis tried to be the TNG version of the Wrath of Khan, but ultimately failed to do so.

I think its interesting to see why this is so:

1. Khan was a villain from the TOS tv series, he had an established history with Kirk, Shinzon was just some villain that came out of nowhere and had no real established history with Picard.

2. Khan's motives for hating Kirk were very clear, while Shinzon's motives were very vague and convoluted.

3. TNG already had its own Wrath of Khan, its called First Contact. The difference between Wrath of Khan and First contact is the roles were reversed, with the hero hating the villain and that obsession nearly destroying the hero. In Wrath of Khan, Khan was Captain Ahab, in First Contact Picard is Captain Ahab. Picard showed far more raw emotion in First contact, where his hatred of the Borg seemed overpowering, in Nemesis you didn't see that, Picard seemed annoyed in that picture. The Borg are Picard's nemesis, not some stock action movie villain like Shinzon. Its the Borg that truly hurt Picard, not Shinzon. Again the Borg were from the TNG show and had an established history with Picard, not Shinzon.

 

[sonak]

those points are all fairly accurate. Shinzon was a poorly realized villain with muddled motivations who did not come across as ANYTHING like Picard, so the theme of him as "dark mirror" of Picard came off as contrived and forced.

Much of the story has dumb elements like the dune buggy chase, the inexplicable mind-rape scene, Picard going after Shinzon ALONE on the enemy ship, etc.

 

[inflatabledalek]

It tries to ape Khan without really understanding what made it work and just winds up copying the plot beats without rhyme or reason.

The climactic fight in the Nebula is a good example of this, in Khan going in there is a smart strategy on Kirk's part that levels the playing field between the two ships (and from a real world POV allows Meyer to both come up with a logical reason to play out the battler like a submarine film and allow for the limitations of the effects they could afford by putting the fight in a place where the ships have to move slowly and carefully around each other rather than zipping all over the place). In Nemesis Picard just really stupidly flies into the perfect place to get his arse kicked for no reason other than the film makers wanted it to be like Khan.

 

[Ultramann]

Was it ever thought of to have Patrick Stweart play both parts?

 

[The Overlord]

Was it ever thought of to have Patrick Stweart play both parts?

I think so, but I don't think that would have worked, Stewart seemed really old and tired in this movie as it is, giving him double the work wouldn't helped.

 

[JarodRussell]

They should have given Stewart both roles. Give him a nasty scar and make his face 20 years younger using the technique they used in X-Men 3.

 

[Therin of Andor]

... make his face 20 years younger using the technique they used in X-Men 3.

And totally blow the budget. The technique was innovative and costly when "X-Men 3" did it on its huge budget in 2006. It wasn't cost-effective (or even possible) in 2002.

 

[Herbert1]

... make his face 20 years younger using the technique they used in X-Men 3.

And totally blow the budget. The technique was innovative and costly when "X-Men 3" did it on its huge budget in 2006. It wasn't cost-effective (or even possible) in 2002.

I thought that the whole point of the younger clone was that Patrick Stewart did not want to play Shinzon.

 

[BriGuy]

those points are all fairly accurate. Shinzon was a poorly realized villain with muddled motivations who did not come across as ANYTHING like Picard, so the theme of him as "dark mirror" of Picard came off as contrived and forced.

Much of the story has dumb elements like the dune buggy chase, the inexplicable mind-rape scene, Picard going after Shinzon ALONE on the enemy ship, etc.

I still don't understand the hatred for the "mind rape" scene. I thought it was one of the most effective plotlines of the movie. And it made perfect sense to me.

Say what you will about Shinzon's juvenile "desires," but he apparently has longings for human or human-appearing companionship. His fascination with Troi starts when he first sees her and wants to touch her hair. He then commits the mental violation.

And it's not something that comes up that one time and then never has any repercussions.

It comes back to bite him big-time when Troi turns the tables on her attacker, and uses their "link" to find the cloaked ship.

I thought that was well-done.

 

[BriGuy]

... make his face 20 years younger using the technique they used in X-Men 3.

And totally blow the budget. The technique was innovative and costly when "X-Men 3" did it on its huge budget in 2006. It wasn't cost-effective (or even possible) in 2002.

And they probably didn't have the tech for however it was done more recently for Tron.

Now that would've helped carry the "evil twin" story further, if the "evil twin" actually resembled Picard.

It's funny to me how in this movie they march Shinzon out into the light, and I guess they thought the audience would immediately recognize Shinzon as Picard's clone, seemingly like Picard did. But there really is no resemblance, certainly not for supposedly being a clone.

 

[ConRefit79]

I could understand Shinzon not wanting Picard to exist. But, I never understood Shinzon's hatred of the Federation.

The biggest thing that flopped for me was Data's death. It just fell flat. Geordie was closer to him than anyone and he didn't appear to feel anything. And I guess the scene with the memory transfer with B4 appeared to be a setup for a way to resurrect Data. So his death seemed cheap at the time. I'm pretty sure in TWOK, no one expected Spock to come back in the next film.

 

[MrJ]

All very good points.

I think this video highlights the Nemesis failure vs. Wrath of Khan success.

 

[The Overlord]

those points are all fairly accurate. Shinzon was a poorly realized villain with muddled motivations who did not come across as ANYTHING like Picard, so the theme of him as "dark mirror" of Picard came off as contrived and forced.

Much of the story has dumb elements like the dune buggy chase, the inexplicable mind-rape scene, Picard going after Shinzon ALONE on the enemy ship, etc.

I still don't understand the hatred for the "mind rape" scene. I thought it was one of the most effective plotlines of the movie. And it made perfect sense to me.

Say what you will about Shinzon's juvenile "desires," but he apparently has longings for human or human-appearing companionship. His fascination with Troi starts when he first sees her and wants to touch her hair. He then commits the mental violation.

And it's not something that comes up that one time and then never has any repercussions.

It comes back to bite him big-time when Troi turns the tables on her attacker, and uses their "link" to find the cloaked ship.

I thought that was well-done.

There are numerous problems with that scene.

Rape is really a taboo subject and with good reason, its something that should be handled carefully. Here it just seems rather exploitative, it doesn't really further the plot and exists only to prove that Shinzon is evil.

Also it makes Shinzon look stupid, the crew of Enterprise didn't know he was evil, he could have continued his ploy of seeming to be a peaceful leader and then lure the Enterprise into a trap or catch them with their guard down. Instead he reveals he is evil almost right away and throws away all the work he put into creating this ploy, for reasons that have nothing to do with his master plan. A pretty bone head move for someone who is supposed to be a tactical genius.

 

[sonak]

those points are all fairly accurate. Shinzon was a poorly realized villain with muddled motivations who did not come across as ANYTHING like Picard, so the theme of him as "dark mirror" of Picard came off as contrived and forced.

Much of the story has dumb elements like the dune buggy chase, the inexplicable mind-rape scene, Picard going after Shinzon ALONE on the enemy ship, etc.

I still don't understand the hatred for the "mind rape" scene. I thought it was one of the most effective plotlines of the movie. And it made perfect sense to me.

Say what you will about Shinzon's juvenile "desires," but he apparently has longings for human or human-appearing companionship. His fascination with Troi starts when he first sees her and wants to touch her hair. He then commits the mental violation.

And it's not something that comes up that one time and then never has any repercussions.

It comes back to bite him big-time when Troi turns the tables on her attacker, and uses their "link" to find the cloaked ship.

I thought that was well-done.

There are numerous problems with that scene.

Rape is really a taboo subject and with good reason, its something that should be handled carefully. Here it just seems rather exploitative, it doesn't really further the plot and exists only to prove that Shinzon is evil.

Also it makes Shinzon look stupid, the crew of Enterprise didn't know he was evil, he could have continued his ploy of seeming to be a peaceful leader and then lure the Enterprise into a trap or catch them with their guard down. Instead he reveals he is evil almost right away and throws away all the work he put into creating this ploy, for reasons that have nothing to do with his master plan. A pretty bone head move for someone who is supposed to be a tactical genius.

um, I was going to respond, but you pretty much covered it. Well done.

 

[exodus]

I still don't understand the hatred for the "mind rape" scene. I thought it was one of the most effective plotlines of the movie. And it made perfect sense to me.

Say what you will about Shinzon's juvenile "desires," but he apparently has longings for human or human-appearing companionship. His fascination with Troi starts when he first sees her and wants to touch her hair. He then commits the mental violation.

And it's not something that comes up that one time and then never has any repercussions.

It comes back to bite him big-time when Troi turns the tables on her attacker, and uses their "link" to find the cloaked ship.

I thought that was well-done.

There are numerous problems with that scene.

Rape is really a taboo subject and with good reason, its something that should be handled carefully. Here it just seems rather exploitative, it doesn't really further the plot and exists only to prove that Shinzon is evil.

Also it makes Shinzon look stupid, the crew of Enterprise didn't know he was evil, he could have continued his ploy of seeming to be a peaceful leader and then lure the Enterprise into a trap or catch them with their guard down. Instead he reveals he is evil almost right away and throws away all the work he put into creating this ploy, for reasons that have nothing to do with his master plan. A pretty bone head move for someone who is supposed to be a tactical genius.

um, I was going to respond, but you pretty much covered it. Well done.

Agreed.
It was a bad concept in the fact that Picard's only equal.....is himself? Seriously? There's nobody on Romulus or within the thousands of worlds within and without the Federation that can rival Picard?

When did Picard become Q?

 

[Admiral_Young]

I think an even bigger reason is that you had a director in Stuart Baird who wasn't familiar with the universe and because of that had a hard time directing the actors and wasn't familiar with their dynamic. John Logan's script was simply weak despite the fact that he claimed that he was a huge fan and watched every single TNG episode before writing the script. To me personally both of these men were among the primary reasons why the film doesn't work or was successful at the box office.

 

[BriGuy]

those points are all fairly accurate. Shinzon was a poorly realized villain with muddled motivations who did not come across as ANYTHING like Picard, so the theme of him as "dark mirror" of Picard came off as contrived and forced.

Much of the story has dumb elements like the dune buggy chase, the inexplicable mind-rape scene, Picard going after Shinzon ALONE on the enemy ship, etc.

I still don't understand the hatred for the "mind rape" scene. I thought it was one of the most effective plotlines of the movie. And it made perfect sense to me.

Say what you will about Shinzon's juvenile "desires," but he apparently has longings for human or human-appearing companionship. His fascination with Troi starts when he first sees her and wants to touch her hair. He then commits the mental violation.

And it's not something that comes up that one time and then never has any repercussions.

It comes back to bite him big-time when Troi turns the tables on her attacker, and uses their "link" to find the cloaked ship.

I thought that was well-done.

There are numerous problems with that scene.

Rape is really a taboo subject and with good reason, its something that should be handled carefully. Here it just seems rather exploitative, it doesn't really further the plot and exists only to prove that Shinzon is evil.

Also it makes Shinzon look stupid, the crew of Enterprise didn't know he was evil, he could have continued his ploy of seeming to be a peaceful leader and then lure the Enterprise into a trap or catch them with their guard down. Instead he reveals he is evil almost right away and throws away all the work he put into creating this ploy, for reasons that have nothing to do with his master plan. A pretty bone head move for someone who is supposed to be a tactical genius.

A "taboo subject" how? Since when does any subject become "taboo" in Trek? I've seen rape - real physical rape in the sense it actually happens - as a subject in many TV shows and movies.

Just because it's "taboo" can't mean it can't be used in a fictional story. And here we're talking about a "mind rape," not a physical rape. And I've only seen people here refer to it as a "rape." In the movie, Troi calls it a violation, if I remember right.

Shinzon didn't physically rape Troi. He put himself in her mind, having her see him instead of Riker, and for a brief time.

And as I said it does become part of the plot, when Troi uses it to turn the tables on Shinzon and find his ship. I thought that was wonderfully done.

Just because rape is "taboo" doesn't take away from the power of the scene.

 

[sonak]

I still don't understand the hatred for the "mind rape" scene. I thought it was one of the most effective plotlines of the movie. And it made perfect sense to me.

Say what you will about Shinzon's juvenile "desires," but he apparently has longings for human or human-appearing companionship. His fascination with Troi starts when he first sees her and wants to touch her hair. He then commits the mental violation.

And it's not something that comes up that one time and then never has any repercussions.

It comes back to bite him big-time when Troi turns the tables on her attacker, and uses their "link" to find the cloaked ship.

I thought that was well-done.

There are numerous problems with that scene.

Rape is really a taboo subject and with good reason, its something that should be handled carefully. Here it just seems rather exploitative, it doesn't really further the plot and exists only to prove that Shinzon is evil.

Also it makes Shinzon look stupid, the crew of Enterprise didn't know he was evil, he could have continued his ploy of seeming to be a peaceful leader and then lure the Enterprise into a trap or catch them with their guard down. Instead he reveals he is evil almost right away and throws away all the work he put into creating this ploy, for reasons that have nothing to do with his master plan. A pretty bone head move for someone who is supposed to be a tactical genius.

A "taboo subject" how? Since when does any subject become "taboo" in Trek? I've seen rape - real physical rape in the sense it actually happens - as a subject in many TV shows and movies.

Just because it's "taboo" can't mean it can't be used in a fictional story. And here we're talking about a "mind rape," not a physical rape. And I've only seen people here refer to it as a "rape." In the movie, Troi calls it a violation, if I remember right.

Shinzon didn't physically rape Troi. He put himself in her mind, having her see him instead of Riker, and for a brief time.

And as I said it does become part of the plot, when Troi uses it to turn the tables on Shinzon and find his ship. I thought that was wonderfully done.

Just because rape is "taboo" doesn't take away from the power of the scene.

I see that you only focused on one of the many reasons he gave for why it was a stupid plot element.

It was totally irrelevant to his plan, and tipped off the ENT crew that he was a bad guy.

 

[BriGuy]

I could understand Shinzon not wanting Picard to exist. But, I never understood Shinzon's hatred of the Federation.

The biggest thing that flopped for me was Data's death. It just fell flat. Geordie was closer to him than anyone and he didn't appear to feel anything. And I guess the scene with the memory transfer with B4 appeared to be a setup for a way to resurrect Data. So his death seemed cheap at the time. I'm pretty sure in TWOK, no one expected Spock to come back in the next film.

I would've preferred the death without the B4 reset button being dangled.

I mean, wasn't it known at that time that Spiner was done portraying Data? If so, why did they need to leave a way for him to continue?

Or did they just want fans to have the comfort that Data would somehow continue to exist, even if we never see him in new content again?

I figure, if there's not going to be any more TV or movie appearances of Data, kill him and leave him dead.

 

[BriGuy]

There are numerous problems with that scene.

Rape is really a taboo subject and with good reason, its something that should be handled carefully. Here it just seems rather exploitative, it doesn't really further the plot and exists only to prove that Shinzon is evil.

Also it makes Shinzon look stupid, the crew of Enterprise didn't know he was evil, he could have continued his ploy of seeming to be a peaceful leader and then lure the Enterprise into a trap or catch them with their guard down. Instead he reveals he is evil almost right away and throws away all the work he put into creating this ploy, for reasons that have nothing to do with his master plan. A pretty bone head move for someone who is supposed to be a tactical genius.

A "taboo subject" how? Since when does any subject become "taboo" in Trek? I've seen rape - real physical rape in the sense it actually happens - as a subject in many TV shows and movies.

Just because it's "taboo" can't mean it can't be used in a fictional story. And here we're talking about a "mind rape," not a physical rape. And I've only seen people here refer to it as a "rape." In the movie, Troi calls it a violation, if I remember right.

Shinzon didn't physically rape Troi. He put himself in her mind, having her see him instead of Riker, and for a brief time.

And as I said it does become part of the plot, when Troi uses it to turn the tables on Shinzon and find his ship. I thought that was wonderfully done.

Just because rape is "taboo" doesn't take away from the power of the scene.

I see that you only focused on one of the many reasons he gave for why it was a stupid plot element.

It was totally irrelevant to his plan, and tipped off the ENT crew that he was a bad guy.

Maybe because I didn't feel like commenting on the other remarks?

And it's pretty common for men to be foiled by their base instincts and urges. Troi might have been the first non-Romulan, non-Reman woman he'd seen in his entire life.

Shinzon's plans seemed to be nebulous and in flux, anyway, with his viceroy having to remind him to stick to objectives. He was impulsive.