Why "Star Trek" is not right...

[F. King Daniel]

Out of the "nitpicking" and self induced PRO and CON "speculation" on the plotholes of the movie, I came up with one bold thought. Just where was the "moral" and "thought provoking" elements of this film???? You convince me that it was downright "Star Trek"...and I will give it major thought....

Can you do the same for any of the prior Star Trek movies?

 

[number6]

First you need to agree about what the supposed plotholes in the movie are. For some people plothole=stuff they didn't like. That's not a plothole, nor will it ever be. You will never get a consensus on that so the argument is an empty exercise for someone that just wants to have you run through a maze while he changes the argument and moves the goalpost. That's the only reason to resurrect a thread that hadn't been posted in for two weeks.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Out of the "nitpicking" and self induced PRO and CON "speculation" on the plotholes of the movie, I came up with one bold thought. Just where was the "moral" and "thought provoking" elements of this film???? You convince me that it was downright "Star Trek"...and I will give it major thought....

What the hell was the moral of The Man Trap, The Trouble with Tribbles, Operation: Annihilate, I, Mudd, Space Seed, and Amoke Time since Star Trek needs a moral to be Star Trek.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

What the hell was the moral of The Man Trap, The Trouble with Tribbles, Operation: Annihilate, I, Mudd, Space Seed, and Amoke Time since Star Trek needs a moral to be Star Trek.

Don't think he won't be able to come up some - however lame. And he could do the same for this film if he chose.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

The moral is obvious.

Don't drive fast and stolen cars unless you want to wind up responsible for saving humanity.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

What's the moral of "City On The Edge Of Forever?"

If you can come up with one, it's going to be an awful and clumsy and unsatisfactory "moral." That's because most really great stories about human beings are not simpleminded enough to yield tidy moral lessons.

And that's not to suggest that Abrams's movie is a "really great story about human beings" any more than 99.9% of the rest of Star Trek (or popular entertainment in general) is, but rather to point out that the demand for a moral or easily-digested social commentary is not insistence on quality but rather asking the film makers to flatter and congratulate that portion of the audience that wants to wear its fascination with Star Trek as some kind of geek badge of intelligence - however unjustified.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

The moral of Star Trek is, I think "exceptional people should be encouraged to be exceptional". Same as Ratatouille.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

That's because most really great stories about human beings are not simpleminded enough to yield tidy moral lessons.

Yeah... seriously.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

What's the moral of "City On The Edge Of Forever?"

OK, Dennis, I'll give this one a whirl.

The moral seems to be the text of the book of Ecclesiastes Chapter 3, from which Turn! Turn! Turn! by Pete Seeger is adapted. From the King James version:

1. To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2. A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3. A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4. A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5. A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

...

8. A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

...

13. And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

14. I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

15. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

...

20. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

22. Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

Is the narrator of City preaching?

Hell yes! When Spock says that Edith was right, but at the wrong time.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What the hell was the moral of The Man Trap, The Trouble with Tribbles, Operation: Annihilate, I, Mudd, Space Seed, and Amoke Time since Star Trek needs a moral to be Star Trek.

Don't think he won't be able to come up some - however lame. And he could do the same for this film if he chose.

How about "No matter who you are, no matter how you might have screwed up in the past, somewhere within you is the potential for excellence."

 

[Ryan8bit]

How about "No matter who you are, no matter how you might have screwed up in the past, somewhere within you is the potential for excellence."

It kinda did matter who he was though (or who he was in another life). I don't think there was any point coming across that everyone has the potential to be great. Especially when destiny had played its hand.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

On the other hand, these morals are easier:

The Man Trap: Once she goes grey, she's no longer quite so unbelievable, just handsome [compare with Logan's Run, the novel, in which life ends at 21, cowritten by Johnson].

The Trouble with Tribbles: Spay/neuter your pets.

Operation: Annihilate: Macroscopic space organisms will drive you crazy!

I, Mudd: Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it, times 500.

Space Seed: Australia was colonized by supermen.

Amok Time: There is nothing like hearing what a woman is thinking, to take the wind out of your sails. Especially a Vulcan woman.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

How about "No matter who you are, no matter how you might have screwed up in the past, somewhere within you is the potential for excellence."

It kinda did matter who he was though (or who he was in another life). I don't think there was any point coming across that everyone has the potential to be great. Especially when destiny had played its hand.

Except that I see this as a Kirk origin story, not a Kirk RESTORATION story. The point is we find out from this film that James T. Kirk wasn't born a hero, he had to work at it like anyone else.

 

[number6]

What makes you think James T Kirk in either realities was born a hero??
That's a question I would ask anyone who has a problem with this film. Outside a few throwaway lines like "positively grim" and "stack of books with legs" do we know anything about Kirk in his youth.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

OK, Dennis, I'll give this one a whirl.

I like Ecclesiastes more than a lot of that book, but suggesting that the very broad and general observations about life's realities there constitute a "moral" for COTEOF is a nonstarter, IMAO. With only a little more effort you could wrap Ecclesiastes around most episodes of Seinfeld.

Nor does having a character observe that he agrees with Keeler's goals but not her timing constitute "preaching."

One of the reasons that Ellison's episode is better than most, and the reason it approaches something like dramatic tragedy, is because there's no simple justice or moral consolation to be found in it. Keeler is an innocent and good person and the protagonists let her die not even because they're concerned per se with the evil of the Nazis but simply to restore the world they know.

Of course, this is a rhetorical game - one can invent a moral for this or any story, just not one that will persuade the detached or skeptical.

Star Trek is really at its worst when the writers play Sunday School with it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

How about "No matter who you are, no matter how you might have screwed up in the past, somewhere within you is the potential for excellence."

Oh, I can make it even simpler: "Don't judge people too quickly simply because they're different (Spock versus Kirk)" but so the hell what? It's a meaningless game that distracts from the real virtues and failings of a story.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What makes you think James T Kirk in either realities was born a hero??
That's a question I would ask anyone who has a problem with this film. Outside a few throwaway lines like "positively grim" and "stack of books with legs" do we know anything about Kirk in his youth.

That's my point. For forty years the characterization of James T. Kirk begins with the description "Captain of the USS Enterprise." What was he BEFORE he was Captain? Or for that matter, before he was in Starfleet?

We find out that he was a country bumpkin flushing his life down the toilet and generally making a complete ass of himself in a rudderless, fruitless half-assed excuse for a life.

People keep making alot of issue about "destiny" but the point of the film, as far as both Kirk AND Spock are concerned, is that both of them only come to where they are by taking control of their own destinies, not by choosing a path that has been laid out by them by luck, by tragedy, by birthright, and least of all, by Nero.

How about "No matter who you are, no matter how you might have screwed up in the past, somewhere within you is the potential for excellence."

Oh, I can make it even simpler: "Don't judge people too quickly simply because they're different (Spock versus Kirk)" but so the hell what? It's a meaningless game that distracts from the real virtues and failings of a story.

True that. People always look for meaning in these kinds of stories, but it isn't always there because it was intended to be.

Just saying, even in THIS case, you could easily divine some sort of moral theme from it. Same as any other Trek (though it's not as obvious as "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" or something like that)

 

[Ryan8bit]

Except that I see this as a Kirk origin story, not a Kirk RESTORATION story. The point is we find out from this film that James T. Kirk wasn't born a hero, he had to work at it like anyone else.

It kind of is a Kirk / TOS restoration story because almost everybody ends up exactly where they should be in TOS despite that their lives were radically changed. It's hardly deterministic and definitely a lot more geared towards destiny. They were all destined to do what they once did, not to show that anybody can be anything.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You could interpret it that way, but it also comes to show that, once upon a time, even James T. Kirk was a nobody.

 

[The Castellan]

Operation: Annihilate: Macroscopic space organisms will drive you crazy!

Or try methods not always the obvious.