Why "Star Trek" is not right...

[F. King Daniel]

Between the unknowns, the simplest explanation for most of these is Spock intentionally using a bit of time travel

No, the simplest is what we saw in the film. A supernova explodes that threatens to destroy the galaxy, Ambassador Spock promises to save Romulus, Spock doesn't get there in time and Romulus dies, Nero confronts Spock, Nero and Spock fall into the black hole.

Nero blames Spock and the Federation because Spock didn't make it in time to save his world. Spock managed to save the galaxy but not longtime Federation enemy Romulus. Nero thinks Romulus was betrayed and left to die on purpose by Spock and the Federation. He says as much when torturing Pike.

The galaxy-threatening supernova makes about as much sense as the Praxis explosion in STVI, which somehow hit the Excelsior in Federation space, or the Genesis Device. Like the Praxis shockwave, the Hobus supernova had to be FTL somehow. It's a fantasy element, like human aliens with bumpy heads.

 

[Pauln6]

The galaxy-threatening supernova makes about as much sense as the Praxis explosion in STVI, which somehow hit the Excelsior in Federation space, or the Genesis Device. Like the Praxis shockwave, the Hobus supernova had to be FTL somehow. It's a fantasy element, like human aliens with bumpy heads.

Trek's problem isn't using fantasy elements, it's failing to adhere to its own internal logic when dealing with these fantasy elements.

Praxis exploding isn't the issue per se - presumably Klingons were using some kind of experimental energy production that could have led to an energy wave (fantasy element). What is bonkers is the suggestion that an entire interplanetary empire could be so heavily reliant on one location for its nebulous energy needs. Plus, if Praxis was meant to be in orbit around Quo'nos, surely the ecosystem of the planet would have been devastated instantly by an explosion that could reach into interstellar space? If it was in a separate system then it might score a pass but you would have to question the wisdom of building your main facility closer to your enemy's border than to your defensible home system.

In STXII the issue isn't the FTL 'Supernova' (I rather like the notion that the star had been modified by alien tech for some purpose that led to the catastrophe), it's more a question of how Spock as a lone individual would have been able to prevent the spread of what should presumably have been a spherical energy wave (that threatened the entire Galaxy) with a single, static singularity in one location, particularly a singularity that didn't even have sufficient gravitational pull to crush a single ship.

The concept of Genesis was ok in principle (speeded up terraforming isn't that silly in itself), although some of the stuff in STIII, such as jungles after only a few months and disparate weather within a few miles of each other, was rather odd.

The lesson that Trek has failed to learn is that the bigger the threat, the bigger the plot holes. A simple small mission can be exciting if it places our heroes in peril. The Jason Bourne movies are compelling despite the lack of Bond's gadgets, explosions, and slutty women after all.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

As I've said many times, I'm fairly sure that Spock used the slingshot maneuver to fly to a point BEFORE the star had exploded, intending to absorb it before it went nova in the first place. In which case Nero, not realizing that this was the plan all along, followed him through the time warp intending to tear him a new asshole for seemingly sitting back and letting Romulus be destroyed.

If the star hasn't exploded yet, Romulus hasn't been destroyed yet - so Nero has nothing to be angry about unless he first followed Spock through the slingshot maneuver before later preceding him through the red matter black hole as depicted in the film. Nero makes no mention of this, nor does Spock.

Considering how little they did mention of the events preceding their arrival, I wouldn't really have expected them to. They did not, after all, reference any of the events in Countdown except in vague generalities.

Anyway, it remains a possibility.

It's fairly clear this is not what the writers intended

Which ultimately doesn't matter until the writers sanction additional canon material to expand on their intentions.

Nor is it clear why Nero would attempt to imitate the hypothetical maneuver, if he even had the capability.

It isn't clear why Nero bothered to pursue Spock in the first place, let alone follow him through any sort of maneuver. It's difficult to examine the motives of a deranged Romulan warlord with a tenuous grasp of reality.

Depending on the location of the maneuver there's no guarantee he would have even been aware of it.

Indeed: if he was simply FOLLOWING Spock, he may not have been aware of the maneuver at all.

With this plot device ultimately no bad outcome can be expected to stick, so nothing sufficiently important in the setting is ever truly at risk.

Except that the Slingshot maneuver has rarely been used as a reset button, you would have a point (and the only time it did, was in a case where the time-travel maneuver itself was the cause of the problem). It has only ever been used as a NECESSARY plot device, setting up the premise of the story itself, not a deus ex machina to undo the damage from a previous story. We've been struggling to pin down the in-universe reason for that since at least TVH, but it's enough to know that for whatever the reason, the slingshot maneuver is never used as a reset button, and obviously won't be in the new universe either. It's something that sets up a situation, but rarely RESOLVES it.

Much in the mind meld sequence is lacking in background detail.

However, there is sufficient detail in the narration and imagery to show that the red matter ejection was done after the star went supernova.

Not really. From injection to implosion seems to occur in a matter of seconds, minutes at most; this seems unlikely to be post explosion unless Romulus' star is the one that exploded.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Between the unknowns, the simplest explanation for most of these is Spock intentionally using a bit of time travel

No, the simplest is what we saw in the film. A supernova explodes that threatens to destroy the galaxy, Ambassador Spock promises to save Romulus, Spock doesn't get there in time and Romulus dies, Nero confronts Spock, Nero and Spock fall into the black hole.

You then have to explain the unknowns in that narrative, already mentioned in the post you just quoted. "I don't know" is not an explanation.

 

[BillJ]

Which ultimately doesn't matter until the writers sanction additional canon material to expand on their intentions.

I don't know. Unless there is something in canon that directly contradicts the writers, intent is really all you have to go on.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

True, but intent alone isn't all that useful in INTERPRETING the vagaries of canon either, and plenty of times intent takes a back seat to fan rationalization anyway. The classic non-Trek example is that of James Bond; the going theory is that "James Bond" is actually a code name/pseudonym for several different agents and that every different actor who played 007 has in fact been a completely different agent assuming that particular code name.

It may not be writer's intent, but it plausibly explains quite a few things in the franchise that otherwise don't make alot of sense.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

True, but intent alone isn't all that useful in INTERPRETING the vagaries of canon either, and plenty of times intent takes a back seat to fan rationalization anyway. The classic non-Trek example is that of James Bond; the going theory is that "James Bond" is actually a code name/pseudonym for several different agents and that every different actor who played 007 has in fact been a completely different agent assuming that particular code name.

It may not be writer's intent, but it plausibly explains quite a few things in the franchise that otherwise don't make alot of sense.

Except Moore Bond still mourning Tracy's death and the head of Spectre trying to take revenge on him for something Connery Bond did to him.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Here's the point-by-point:

-Why did Spock go to the Romulans instead of the Federation?

What? Spock represented the Federation on his mission to save Romulus. We saw him in the Romulan senate, and he's called "Ambassador Spock" throughout the movie. He was very probably the Federation ambassador to Romulus in 2387. Federation member Vulcan prepared his ship and the Red Matter. Why would you think the Federation weren't involved?

-Why was he suprised that Romulus was destroyed?

Because he failed them. Spock, who's saved countless worlds and lives actually failed for once, and his adopted people died as a result. As he says to Kirk: "Billions of lives lost because of me, Jim. Because... I failed"

Why did Nero blame Spock/the Federation for inaction insead of blaming his own people?

Only the Federation had the Red Matter. The Federation promised to save Romulus and didn't. Nero says this to Pike on the Narada.

 

[F. King Daniel]

-Why did he need a fast ship

So he'd get the damn Red Matter from Vulcan to Romulus in time! (and he didn't)

 

[kkozoriz1]

Notice how Spock Prime shows his remourse about not saving Romulus. Conpare it to Kirk failing to stop the drill and save Vulcan. No regret. No sympathy for Spock.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Notice how Spock Prime shows his remourse about not saving Romulus. Conpare it to Kirk failing to stop the drill and save Vulcan. No regret. No sympathy for Spock.

We saw shots of everyone grieving and in shock when Spock did his log entry after Vulcan was destroyed.

When Kirk and Sulu went to the drilling platform, they didn't have a clue what was going to happen. Their mission was to disable the drill so communication with Starfleet could be restored. It's an entirely different situation to Spock Prime.

 

[kkozoriz1]

His job was to disable the drill. He didn't succeed and because of that Vulcan was destroyed. He also didn't stop Nero at Earth, that was done by Spock. Strange how he got prompted and nobody else did, other than Pike who didn't really do anything.

 

[F. King Daniel]

His job was to disable the drill. He didn't succeed and because of that Vulcan was destroyed.

You're logic is, quite frankly, crap. Nobody knew the nature of the threat.

Anyway, Kirk and Sulu did disable the drill.

He also didn't stop Nero at Earth, that was done by Spock.

Under Kirk's orders, on Kirk's mission.

Strange how he got prompted and nobody else did,

I think you mean "promoted".
Uhura went from below-decks officer to chief of communications.
Sulu went from temp fill-in to full-time helmsman.
Scotty went from Delta Vega exile to chief engineer.

other than Pike who didn't really do anything.

True, but a happy ending was at stake. Remember the end of STIV?

 

[kkozoriz1]

His job was to disable the drill. He didn't succeed and because of that Vulcan was destroyed.

You're logic is, quite frankly, crap. Nobody knew the nature of the threat.

Anyway, Kirk and Sulu did disable the drill.

He also didn't stop Nero at Earth, that was done by Spock.

Under Kirk's orders, on Kirk's mission.

Strange how he got prompted and nobody else did,

I think you mean "promoted".
Uhura went from below-decks officer to chief of communications.
Sulu went from temp fill-in to full-time helmsman.
Scotty went from Delta Vega exile to chief engineer.

other than Pike who didn't really do anything.

True, but a happy ending was at stake. Remember the end of STIV?

All the promotions except for Kirk & Pike happened before Nero was stopped. So Uhura doesn't deserve any recognition for what she did? She already had the post. What does she get for her part in stopping Nero? How about Sulu? He had his position before Uhura. No love for the helmsman? Spock wasn't even offered a position on the Enterprise, he had to go ask Kirk for a job. Kirk didn't ask ask for Spock, he was getting ready to ship out without a first officer.

Re Kirk and the drill, too little, too late. He didn't prevent Vulcan being destroyed yet he's still the hero? Talk about horses and barn doors.

So, Spock is the one that actually stops Nero. Spock's plan was for just himself to beam over and Kirk invited himself along. Somehow that makes it Kirk's plan and Kirk's orders. And Spcok actually does something that stops Nero whereas Kirk just gets involved in a fistfight or two. Great plan there Jimmy.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Kirk was in command before Nero was stopped. He kept his command, just as everyone else kept their posts.

Jimmy's great plan saved the Earth, remember? He's the reason they went after Nero. This isn't rocket science, it's right there in the movie.

 

[kkozoriz1]

So everyone else gets to keep their position at the same rank and Kirk goes from cadet, with Lt. rank, to Captain. You're right, Kirk did it all himself. Everyone else was just window dressing.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Here's the point-by-point:

-Why did Spock go to the Romulans instead of the Federation?

What? Spock represented the Federation on his mission to save Romulus.

Therein lies the problem. "Sophisticated space mission to save your planet from a natural disaster" is not generally one of the duties commonly entrusted to an ambassador. That is, in fact, one of the primary duties of STARFLEET, is it not?

For some reason, Starfleet couldn't be bothered with it, and Spock evidently volunteered for the mission on his own recognizance. He even used his considerable influence to procure a VULCAN ship, not a Starfleet one... in point of fact, would it not have been faster and more efficient to have simply arranged for a starship to support the mission instead of going all the way to Vulcan to modify a specially-designed vessel just for that one purpose?

We saw him in the Romulan senate

We saw him talking to a bunch of Romulans in an undisclosed location. We have no idea whether or not that conversation took place in the senate, or if the people involved were even senators. For all we know he cut a deal with his friends in the unification movement.

He was very probably the Federation ambassador to Romulus in 2387.

Probably not, considering Spock had already been an ambassador for decades by the time he inexplicably turned up on Romulus in 2369. We don't even know for sure that he's still ON Romulus twenty years later, or if he simply kept in touch with the unification movement after returning to the Federation to resume his ambassadorial duties.

Federation member Vulcan prepared his ship and the Red Matter. Why would you think the Federation weren't involved?

We know the Vulcans prepared the ship, we have no idea where he got the red matter. He obviously didn't get it from the Federation, since that sort of mission is usually handed out to ships with names like "Enterprise," not a hundred and fifty year old diplomat.

Moreover: Spock SPECIFICALLY promises to save Romulus from the supernova. This implies that the mission itself couldn't have taken place without Romulan cooperation (otherwise the promise makes no sense), in which case, the Romulans probably gave him with the red matter he needed to make the mission work.

But if that's the case, why didn't the Romulans drop it into the supernova themselves? They, too, have their own fleet and their own means of taking care of the supernova. At the end of the day, the mind-meld scene and plot logic alone provide no clues as to why SPOCK, of all people, is single handedly entrusted with the fate of Romulus. It must therefore depend on some factor that sets Spock apart, something he can do that both Starfleet and the Romulan empire are either unable or unwilling to do. The only thing that comes to mind is that Spock knows how to calculate trajectories for the slingshot-timewarp maneuver, and is in fact the only living person in the galaxy who is known to have done so.

-Why was he suprised that Romulus was destroyed?

Because he failed them.

That would be remorse, not surprise.

Only the Federation had the Red Matter. The Federation promised to save Romulus and didn't. Nero says this to Pike on the Narada.

Nero says that the Federation stood by and did nothing.

Besides, it's highly doubtful the Federation provided the red matter since--again--there'd be no reason to promise the Romulans anything at all. If Spock made that promise on behalf of the Federation then it was only his personal assurance; the fact that Starfleet apparently didn't get involved means the Federation really DID stand by and do nothing.

 

[Set Harth]

It isn't clear why Nero bothered to pursue Spock in the first place, let alone follow him through any sort of maneuver. It's difficult to examine the motives of a deranged Romulan warlord with a tenuous grasp of reality.

That's ridiculous. It's not "difficult" at all. Nero's motivation is entirely clear as indicated by the film, and fails to be negated by the "deranged Romulan warlord" excuse.

Except that the Slingshot maneuver has rarely been used as a reset button, you would have a point (and the only time it did, was in a case where the time-travel maneuver itself was the cause of the problem).

That is incorrect.

It has only ever been used as a NECESSARY plot device, setting up the premise of the story itself, not a deus ex machina to undo the damage from a previous story.

How do these imagined "previous story" rules work in-universe, where it's all one "story"?

We've been struggling to pin down the in-universe reason for that since at least TVH

And have utterly failed. A fact which should have some consequences and should give rise to certain implications. Instead, it is assumed that the same logical incongruity must carry over into the Orciverse.

but it's enough to know that for whatever the reason, the slingshot maneuver is never used as a reset button, and obviously won't be in the new universe either. It's something that sets up a situation, but rarely RESOLVES it.

This game of semantics misses the point: the maneuver, if it exists, is a reset button. For example, you're advocating its inclusion so that Spock can reset the Hobus star.

Not really. From injection to implosion seems to occur in a matter of seconds, minutes at most; this seems unlikely to be post explosion unless Romulus' star is the one that exploded.

This seems to be based on a dubious presumption of knowledge regarding the mechanics of the process, and the location of the Hobus star should be irrelevant. The events in the mind meld are not necessarily depicted in real time.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Starfleet couldn't be bothered with it

Or Spock had their backing.

and Spock evidently volunteered for the mission under his own recognizance

Yes, Spock very probably volunteered for the mission. We know Spock cares about the Romulans and has shitloads of experience saving worlds. How you think a rogue Vulcan could have some a Vulcan shipyard equip their fastest vessel with a dangerous substance like red matter is beyond me.

a VULCAN ship, not a Starfleet one

"We outfitted our fastest ship", clearly a Vulcan design. In Trek, there's never ever a closer ship to a crisis than the hero's.

Why didn't the Romulans do it themselves

Because they don't have red matter! Otherwise Nero would never have needed Spock's ship.

Spock SPECIFICALLY promises to save Romulus

They were the first to die.

The Federation really DID stand by and do nothing

If you can't see the sunningly obvious, I can't help you.

 

[BillJ]

I'll still never understand why they sent a 160+ year old Ambassador to save Romulus, even if it was a suicide mission. Plus I still don't understand how the 'Jellyfish' was the fastest ship in the Federation a decade plus after Voyager returned with the proverbial 'keys' to slipstream technology.

This, obviously, wasn't a film for those of us who have been paying too much attention to Star Trek for the last forty years. To this day I'd have been much happier if this cast had appeared in a hard-reboot of the franchise. YMMV.