Why "Star Trek" is not right...

[Gojira]

This is so easy...

Is "Single Timeline" Canon?

Yes.

Is Multiple Universe Canon?

Yes.

Is coexistence possible?

Yes.

The difference in this instance is the Red Matter induced Black Hole. It is what caused the jump from one Universe to another.

Wasn't that easy?

As I have been saying...there are many valid points on either side of the argument. But where in the dialog of the movie is it ever stated that the Red Matter induced Black Hole caused Spock and Nero to jump to a Parallel Universe? It is not there. Your speculation is entirely plausible but because of the ambiguity of the movie so are other explanations.

The debate continues...

It doesn't have to continue, just Let go, Luke!

Let me tell you a quick story, one that shocked and amazed me. My Mom is a Trek fan, I got her into it back at the beginning. She wasn't rabid, like us, just a casual fan.

After she saw Trek 09, I asked her what she thought had happened; was it the same old timeline which had been changed or a brand new universe, like the Mirror Universe? She responded, new universe. "What makes you say that?" I asked. "I don't know, it just seems right." She responded.

Even more amazing, my Step-dad, the King of the Canonistas, agrees. He said he could see how it could be seen as the same, old-but-changed, timeline but he believes the spirit of the film was to create a new Universe while preserving the memory of the old, something he respects of its creators.

I & countless others agree. Turn from the darkside and join us.

All in all I can accept this movie as being in a new universe even though I find things in the movie to contradict that. Although I may fight on the side of the movie being a linear story I don't fight with that much intensity and despite my quibbles I can accept the writers intent even though I wish they had been more direct about it.

 

[Set Harth]

That's a circular assumption there: when was it ever established that George Kirk's Starfleet career was part of the PRIME TIMELINE backstory? There's no references to Kirk's father ANYWHERE in canon prior to this film.

Good one. The point, however, was that Spock remembers a different Kirk timeline consistent with the Prime, which makes the whole "time loop" theory impossible.

It's not much of an assumption, since Spock obviously DIDN'T tell anyone--other than Kirk--what the hell was going on. He only approaches Spock to tell him not to leave Starfleet and then sends him on his way.

Again, I'm not talking about what he did or didn't do in the film. I'm talking about what he did or didn't do afterwards. It is indeed very much of an assumption to assume that Spock never told anyone in the Federation anything else about what happened, or that Kirk never told NuSpock what he knew. Highly dubious.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It's either in the movie, or it don't count.

Single timeline theory turns Picard into Schrodinger's Cat.

Then he's Schrodinger's Cat. So what?

 

[F. King Daniel]

There's no references to Kirk's father ANYWHERE in canon prior to this film.

Nor were there references to bumpy-headed Klingons prior to TMP, Sybok prior to STV, the Remans and B4 prior to Nemesis, Tasha Yar's sister prior to "Legacy", the Enterprise NX-01 or Jonathan Archer prior to "Broken Bow", the Federation/Cardassian war (which was suposedly going on during early TNG) until "The Wounded"...

Star Trek's been reverse-engineering stuff into it's canon for 40 years.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

There's no references to Kirk's father ANYWHERE in canon prior to this film.

Nor were there references to bumpy-headed Klingons prior to TMP, Sybok prior to STV, the Remans and B4 prior to Nemesis, Tasha Yar's sister prior to "Legacy", the Enterprise NX-01 or Jonathan Archer prior to "Broken Bow", the Federation/Cardassian war (which was suposedly going on during early TNG) until "The Wounded"...

Star Trek's been reverse-engineering stuff into it's canon for 40 years.

Absolutely. If there is no license to introduce a new element that has always been prior, there is no way to hint at or build a history.

The entire Star Trek Universe would be a canon violation :P

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That's a circular assumption there: when was it ever established that George Kirk's Starfleet career was part of the PRIME TIMELINE backstory? There's no references to Kirk's father ANYWHERE in canon prior to this film.

Good one. The point, however, was that Spock remembers a different Kirk timeline consistent with the Prime, which makes the whole "time loop" theory impossible.

Unless, of course, George Kirk is still alive somewhere. Improbable, I know, but I've been wondering for a couple of months how it is that Nero could have known that Kirk's father had been on the USS Kelvin when it crashed into the Narada (he was, after all, the ONLY one on the ship at the time, everyone else escaped).

Nero was supposedly interned in Rura Penthe for 25 years before escaping and somehow re-capturing his ship (most of the script was written with this background in mind). Since this means he DIDN'T spend those 25 years probing the Narada's databanks, memorizing every halfway relevant fact about mid 23rd century Federation history, he would have had to become aware of George Kirk's identity--and his relation to Jim--some other way. So maybe Nero and George met at Rura Penthe? Maybe George is still there?

Just a thought. I'm not proposing a serious theory here, but if that were the case, then Spock's comment "He lived to see you become Captain of the Enterprise" is actually somewhat prophetic.

It's not much of an assumption, since Spock obviously DIDN'T tell anyone--other than Kirk--what the hell was going on. He only approaches Spock to tell him not to leave Starfleet and then sends him on his way.

Again, I'm not talking about what he did or didn't do in the film. I'm talking about what he did or didn't do afterwards. It is indeed very much of an assumption to assume that Spock never told anyone in the Federation anything else about what happened, or that Kirk never told NuSpock what he knew. Highly dubious.

Kirk doesn't know all that much, and what little he does know would be hard to explain without a mind meld. Spock, on the other hand, probably WOULD inform someone he thought had the wherewithal to do something about it. Bet you a half pint of Romulan Ale that somewhere in the Abramsverse, the newly-appointed captain of the Stargazer is going to get a very suspicious letter from Western Union...

 

[UFO]

I think that if YoungSpock were thinking rationally he would have excused himself as soon as he returned to the ship. Instead, he TIGHTENED his grip on command, even to the point of having Kirk--at the time, his own first officer--thrown off the ship and dumped on some backwater planet just for challenging his orders. That isn't a rational or responsible command decision, and in retrospect, neither is trying to run to the Laurentian System to join the rest of the fleet.

You're welcome to think that. But "…TIGHTENED his grip on command…."? In reality Kirk was thrown off the ship for attacking fellow officers who were already escorting him off the bridge. Since he was there illegally anyway and given the circumstances, perhaps not so unreasonable. Although that action was obviously a plot contrivance rather than an insight in to Spock’s state of mind because not long after he "welcomed" Bone’s request to speak freely. Hardly the reaction of a repressive dictator.

Kirk as a history of getting out of impossible situations but, as I said, just because two superior officers didn't agree with him doesn’t make their decisions irresponsible. Lots of people had already died pointlessly trying to stop Nero or so the film would have us believe.

Your excuses are inventive but no other commander with the sense evolution gave an amoeba, would have gone after Nero at that stage when they had no hope of success.

Except, obviously, for Kirk.

I said a commander, not a junior grade hothead.

Well of course they were both under stress. But the fact remains that NuSpock was still capable of doing his job

No, he's not. And OldSpock knew this. He wasn't guessing, he wasn't speculating, he KNEW that he was emotionally compromised. He also knew that nobody else on the Enterprise would have realized this until it was too late.

A) They are not the same person and their histories have already diverged.
B) He has to guess what this nuSpock is feeling based on what he might have felt when he was almost 200 years younger? The "events of today" could have easily upset him a good deal more or differently because of his advanced years.
C) If they are both "emotionally compromised" then SpockP’s decision making may not be up to much either (you can’t have it both ways!). He was obviously surprise Kirk wasn’t in command and (like the writers) decided to engineer a way for that to happen.
D) Can we therefore conclude Star Fleet must have been "emotionally compromised" when the promoted a hopelessly inexperience officer to command the fleets newest flagship when what Kirk mostly did was be lucky? Because had he be as single minded before he got trans warp beaming, things very likely would have been rather different (47 Klingon warships, 7 or so Federation ships!).

But even if SpockP was right, Kirk could have explained the great new technological advantage they now had and suggested they form a plan to use it. If Spock still wasn’t keen, then Kirk could have gone for the jugular with no (extra) harm done. But given how Spock later wanted to help, I suspect he would have at least considered it. Yes, I know, he only got his rationality back after his father gave him permission to be emotional!

What you can't get around is that SPOCK HIMSELF is saying that he is already emotionally compromised. Don't you remember that exchange? Kirk asks "You want me to emotionally compromise you?" to which Spock replies, "I'm already compromised, I'm just not showing it."

I knew I should have waited for the director’s cut!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I think that if YoungSpock were thinking rationally he would have excused himself as soon as he returned to the ship. Instead, he TIGHTENED his grip on command, even to the point of having Kirk--at the time, his own first officer--thrown off the ship and dumped on some backwater planet just for challenging his orders. That isn't a rational or responsible command decision, and in retrospect, neither is trying to run to the Laurentian System to join the rest of the fleet.

You're welcome to think that. But "…TIGHTENED his grip on command…."? In reality Kirk was thrown off the ship for attacking fellow officers who were already escorting him off the bridge.

Having him thrown off the bridge in the first place would be a violation of protocol and regulations. Having him thrown off the SHIP is a clear violation of regs, and is--if you think about it--profoundly illogical since the Enterprise has a perfectly good brig.

Kirk as a history of getting out of impossible situations but, as I said, just because two superior officers didn't agree with him doesn’t make their decisions irresponsible.

Intentionally marooning your first officer on a barely habitable planet with no confirmation that anyone on that planet even knows he's there doesn't strike you as irresponsible?

Except, obviously, for Kirk.

I said a commander, not a junior grade hothead.

A Junior Grade Hothead in the center seat is, in fact, a commander.

A) They are not the same person and their histories have already diverged.

Not by that point they haven't. The only events that would propell young Spock on a significantly different trajectory only occurred a few hours ago. For all intents and purposes he is still the younger version of Spock, and the older version is familiar enough with his younger self to predict his state of mind. He may not be in a position to do so a year from now, or two, or ten, but HERE AND NOW, he knows what he's thinking.

B) He has to guess what this nuSpock is feeling based on what he might have felt when he was almost 200 years younger?

Not exactly difficult. He knows what he's feeling NOW, watching Vulcan being destroyed with its entire population. He also knows what he felt when his mother died all those years ago. If anything, he's UNDER estimating what young Spock--whose experience with death and loss are at this point still limited--must be going through (remember, OldSpock lost his brother in the Great Barrier, lost his mother years ago, lost his father to Bendai Syndrome, and even had to watch all his friends from the Enterprise grow old and die. He's no stranger to loss, but YoungSpock is).

C) If they are both "emotionally compromised" then SpockP’s decision making may not be up to much either (you can’t have it both ways!). He was obviously surprise Kirk wasn’t in command and (like the writers) decided to engineer a way for that to happen.

Indeed. Of course, if the elder, battle hardened (literally) and more experienced Spock has his judgement compromised at a time like this, how about the younger one?

D) Can we therefore conclude Star Fleet must have been "emotionally compromised" when the promoted a hopelessly inexperience officer to command the fleets newest flagship when what Kirk mostly did was be lucky?

No, that's just par for the course in Starfleet. You may be forgetting that Jean Luc Picard got his first command the exact same way.

But even if SpockP was right, Kirk could have explained the great new technological advantage they now had and suggested they form a plan to use it.

And if OldSpock had told him to do that, he would have. But he didn't. He told him to take command of the Enterprise and then do things his way. And Kirk--trusting the old man's apparent wisdom--did exactly that.

And so begins the tradition of Kirk always turning to Spock for advice in his darkest hour.

 

[UFO]

Having him thrown off the bridge in the first place would be a violation of protocol and regulations. Having him thrown off the SHIP is a clear violation of regs, and is--if you think about it--profoundly illogical since the Enterprise has a perfectly good brig.

Well, I'm not up on "king’s regs" but there didn’t seem much else to do except have Kirk removed from the bridge. Let’s face it, ordering someone off the ship is just way more dramatic and isn't that the traditional response to mutiny? Besides, maybe the brig was already in use housing Vulcan survivors.

Intentionally marooning your first officer on a barely habitable planet with no confirmation that anyone on that planet even knows he's there doesn't strike you as irresponsible?

Not exactly a highlight of the movie, but it strikes me as the writers setting the stage for Kirk having to get out of his pod and bump into SpockP. As I already intimated, fortuitously moving characters around at the whim of the plot is not restricted to this event so it seems unfair to blame Spock in this case. Besides, Spock probably knew that the base’s computer would be in contact with the pod and let the base staff know. What, you mean that didn’t happen? I’m shocked!

A Junior Grade Hothead in the center seat is, in fact, a commander.

My statement was: "… no other commander with the sense evolution gave an amoeba, would have gone after Nero at that stage when they had no hope of success."

Kirk was not sitting in the centre seat "at that stage". By the time Kirk got there, they had Trans Warp Beamimg which gave him a chance Spock and Pike didn't have.

Not by that point they haven't. The only events that would propell young Spock on a significantly different trajectory only occurred a few hours ago. For all intents and purposes he is still the younger version of Spock, and the older version is familiar enough with his younger self to predict his state of mind. He may not be in a position to do so a year from now, or two, or ten, but HERE AND NOW, he knows what he's thinking.

Really? The entire Federation would have known about the Kelvin. Plenty of time for those butterflies to do their thing. Vuclan could have become more insular for example. From TOS there is no indication Spock and Uhura were an item at the academy in the prime universe, etc. Even if you disagree (something tell me you will), other differences in his life are obviously possible.

Not exactly difficult. He knows what he's feeling NOW, watching Vulcan being destroyed with its entire population. He also knows what he felt when his mother died all those years ago. If anything, he's UNDER estimating what young Spock--whose experience with death and loss are at this point still limited--must be going through (remember, OldSpock lost his brother in the Great Barrier, lost his mother years ago, lost his father to Bendai Syndrome, and even had to watch all his friends from the Enterprise grow old and die. He's no stranger to loss, but YoungSpock is).

Those are good points but it’s really about how he is effected and in that regard there is also the resilience of youth to be considered plus see below.

Indeed. Of course, if the elder, battle hardened (literally) and more experienced Spock has his judgement compromised at a time like this, how about the younger one?

Battle hardened or weakened by age? It could go either way. SpockP no longer seems to be as fortified by Vulcan training. The question is whether OldSpock could accurately judge NuSpock’s degree of incapacity. Anyone would be compromised, Kirk certainly was. But we will never know how compromised NuSpock was because he was never given a chance by Kirk to make a bad decision. That’s the important point. Without that it's all guesswork no matter who you are. SpockP went about things the wrong way IMO.

D) Can we therefore conclude Star Fleet must have been "emotionally compromised" when the promoted a hopelessly inexperience officer to command the fleets newest flagship when what Kirk mostly did was be lucky?

No, that's just par for the course in Starfleet. You may be forgetting that Jean Luc Picard got his first command the exact same way.

I confess I did forget. I would have thought Picard had a little experience under his belt.

But even if SpockP was right, Kirk could have explained the great new technological advantage they now had and suggested they form a plan to use it.

And if OldSpock had told him to do that, he would have. But he didn't. He told him to take command of the Enterprise and then do things his way. And Kirk--trusting the old
man's apparent wisdom--did exactly that.

And so begins the tradition of Kirk always turning to Spock for advice in his darkest hour.

And so too perhaps, begins the tradition of NuTrek doing things the wrong way in my view (OK, they actually started a bit before then).

 

[kkozoriz1]

But Kirk didn't even want Spock as his First Officer. He accepted him when he offered his services but Kirk didn't seek him out. Once more, something is offered to Kirk without him actually having to do it himself (Academy entrance, getting onto the ship, becoming first officer, etc, etc)

 

[BillJ]

I confess I did forget. I would have thought Picard had a little experience under his belt.

He did have experience.

He took command of the Stargazer at the age of 28, which was 2333 (born in 2305) and joined the academy in 2323. Which means if he graduated in 2327, he served in Starfleet for six years as an officer before attaining command of a small exploration vessel.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Picard

 

[Pauln6]

My statement was: "… no other commander with the sense evolution gave an amoeba, would have gone after Nero at that stage when they had no hope of success."

Kirk was not sitting in the centre seat "at that stage". By the time Kirk got there, they had Trans Warp Beamimg which gave him a chance Spock and Pike didn't have.

If Kirk's plan to chase down the Narada would most likely have failed without the extra information and help from Spock Prime and Scotty, doesn't this mean that 'compromised' NuSpock was right to slap him down for idiocy and insubordination and that Starfleet was wrong to reward him with promotion?

This is without the problems I have about the implementation of the amended plan, which succeeded due to sheer luck rather than any coherent strategy or command ability.

 

[UFO]

If Kirk's plan to chase down the Narada would most likely have failed without the extra information and help from Spock Prime and Scotty, doesn't this mean that 'compromised' NuSpock was right to slap him down for idiocy and insubordination and that Starfleet was wrong to reward him with promotion?

That’s how it looked to me and if we didn’t "know" the sequel will doubtless prove them "correct", Star Fleet might have been wise to take your conclusion into account as well. newtype_alpha made some good points but whatever Spock’s state of mind, I can’t fault his actual decision making on that point and other decisions seemed dictated by the plot. Anyway, I guess we will never know what Kirk’s original plan was (he never stated it), but he ended up going for trans-warp beaming instead.

True, I don’t think it is ever explicitly stated they are using trans-warp beaming but the distance form Titan to Earth is beyond normal beaming range which Scotty’s instructor suggested is about 100 miles (if you’re a grapefruit!). I can only assume the reason enemy ships didn’t beam marines aboard the Narada before, is because Nero saw them on his sensors and raised shields.

I confess I did forget. I would have thought Picard had a little experience under his belt.

He did have experience.

He took command of the Stargazer at the age of 28, which was 2333 (born in 2305) and joined the academy in 2323. Which means if he graduated in 2327, he served in Starfleet for six years as an officer before attaining command of a small exploration vessel.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Picard

Thanks for the info.

 

[Set Harth]

Spock, on the other hand, probably WOULD inform someone he thought had the wherewithal to do something about it.

Which would probably ruin the time loop theory.

Unless, of course, George Kirk is still alive somewhere. Improbable, I know

More like impossible, given the film. We see his death scene.

 

[kkozoriz1]

We don't actually see the body though. Nero COULD have beamed him off and abandoned him someplace.

 

[ST-One]

We don't actually see the body though. Nero COULD have beamed him off and abandoned him someplace.

Yeah, we only see him slammed forward on the exploding bridge when the Kelvin crashed into the Narada...

Of course he's dead.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Until they decide to bring him back, if ever.

 

[ST-One]

Until they decide to bring him back, if ever.

Okay... right now he's dead

 

[F. King Daniel]

George Kirk was turned to paste and incincerated.

They could bring him back in a billion and one sci-fi ways - but after STXI did it's best to make death in Trek a meaningful thing again, I don't see them pressing the reset button on George's sacrifice.

 

[Gojira]

We don't actually see the body though. Nero COULD have beamed him off and abandoned him someplace.

For a split second we see his body go flying out of the captain's chair as the bridge explodes around him. There were no signs of him being beamed anywhere in the moment of his death.