Why "Star Trek" is not right...

[Crazy Eddie]

This is what is meant by 'taking the piss', right?

Honestly, Alpha, this is being stretched so thin that only Deanna Troi could drive a ship into it...

Are you really that lonely, or is there some specific reason you insist on following me around, yipping at my ankles like a starving puppy?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

You know there is still debate whether or not this takes place in an altered time line within the Prime Universe or if this is indeed an alternate universe (despite the writers intent).

How can the intent of the writers be dismissed that easily?

On the simple principle that a work must stand and be evaluated on its own merit - not as elaborated or explained by its creators, not in relation to a comic-book "prequel," etc. It's either in the movie, or it don't count.
As for earlier comments about Kirk being given command of a starship after stealing one and blowing it up in the oldTrek movies, it's important to remember that he saved Earth on that occasion. It's not as if nuKirk saved Earth in this -

Oh yeah. Never mind.

 

[UFO]

... Until Kirk did his hatchet job, NuSpock seemed to be operating pretty much within established parameters. And doing a good job too.

He only SEEMED to, and this is important to keep in mind: Vulcans DO have emotions, no matter how hard they try to suppress them. OldSpock was the only one in the universe--other than Sarek--who could have possibly known how Spock was really feeling about all this.

He didn’t just "seem" to be doing a good job, he actually was. Humans have emotions too but when you are in command you have to try to soldier on, which Spock did. Whatever SpockP/Sarek may have known is irrelevant so long as Spock was doing his job. Kirk never gave Spock a chance to make a wrong decision. Had Spock known as much as Kirk did and still wouldn’t consider a plan to go after Nero, then Kirk would have an excuse to stage his "coup". But once again the modern "end justifying the means" view prevailed.

Ironic that if anyone was emotionally compromised it was Kirk (before he was exiled to DV). He didn’t even have the excuse of someone personally provoking him. Had he been in command at that point he likely would have charged after Nero with no realistic plan or chance of success.

On the other hand, even Sarek's advice isn't his own advice, but Amanda's. At a time when both of them are basically homeless and teetering on the edge of extinction, quoting Vulcan dogma would seem all the more hollow.

Its been established that they weren't "teetering on the edge of extinction" (the writers admit there were more than 10,000 Vulcans left). Someone should have remembered that there was at least one colony, I believe. Also one human's dogma is presumably a Vulcan's constructive support. Anyway, weird that surrendering to emotion seemed to have the opposite effect in such short order. In fact its hard to see how Spock could be as badly damaged as was portrayed given he was fit for duty again within an hour or so. The answer is of course that he wasn't. Not until Kirk temporarily pushed him over the edge. It's a fine line between "showing" everyone how compromised NuSpock is supposed to be and causing him to appear to be so (even to himself). Could the film’s plot be any more transparent?

 

[F. King Daniel]

There's "fit for duty" and "focusing your rage". Spock wanted revenge on the Romulans - as evidenced by what he says to his father, and what he says to Kirk when Narada's disabled.

Also, Spock very much was not fit for duty when Kirk "relieved" him. He was willing to let Earth be destroyed while he robotically followed Pike's last orders. He was "Galileo Seven" Stupid Spock mode, albeit with a damn good excuse this time. Note that it was an emotional, last-ditch plan that saved the day for the TOS shuttle crew too...

 

[kkozoriz1]

You know there is still debate whether or not this takes place in an altered time line within the Prime Universe or if this is indeed an alternate universe (despite the writers intent).

How can the intent of the writers be dismissed that easily?

On the simple principle that a work must stand and be evaluated on its own merit - not as elaborated or explained by its creators, not in relation to a comic-book "prequel," etc. It's either in the movie, or it don't count. ;-)

As for earlier comments about Kirk being given command of a starship after stealing one and blowing it up in the oldTrek movies, it's important to remember that he saved Earth on that occasion. It's not as if nuKirk saved Earth in this -

Oh yeah. Never mind. ;-)

Although, in that case he was also demoted. Perhaps NuKirk should have been given command of smaller ship and a promotion to Lt. Commander. Properly though, to keep things the same, he should have been demoted to Ensign and given command of a tiny ship.

 

[Kai Winn]

2. In the TOS era, Spock's and Sarek's separation from each other was because Spock chose entering Starfleet rather than entering the Vulcan Science Academy, which is what Sarek wanted him to do. Why on gods green earth would Sarek tell him to follow his emotions?

don't know if this was mentioned before, the thread is quite long. sarek revealed to spock that he loved his wife, certainly an emotion outlawed by the vulcan code of conduct, but considering what wonderful wife and mother she was, following the emotion was the right choice for sarek.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

2. In the TOS era, Spock's and Sarek's separation from each other was because Spock chose entering Starfleet rather than entering the Vulcan Science Academy, which is what Sarek wanted him to do. Why on gods green earth would Sarek tell him to follow his emotions?

Possibly in an attempt to have the characters respond in some interesting, dramatic way to the traumatic events they were experiencing rather than react in a programmed way for the reassurance of the fanboigeoisie.

 

[Pauln6]

^^I would agree that aspect is one of the very few that could have been handled a little smoother.

Agreed. Actually, I would have been happier if Pike had promoted Kirk to first officer and the film closes with him saying "You'll make a fine Captain some day, Jim..." something like that. Those of us who know Trek would recognize this as the really REALLY beginning of the Enterprise's mission (reboot style) while those of us who don't would simply recognize it as a prequel.

This is exactly what I wanted to see. They could have opened any sequel with Kirk stepping onto the bridge a couple of years later as the captain he then deserved to be. Problem was that because they wrote out Number One and had Spock already installed as a higher-ranking first officer (commander instead of lieutenant or lt-commander) there was nowhere to promote Kirk to on the Enterprise without demoting Spock, except captain.

Number One should have featured but been nobbled in the first encounter at Vulcan - cheesy (and already used to promote McCoy) but if both Kirk and Spock get impromptu field promotions Kirk's leap-frogging Spock later doesn't look quite so insulting to the far more experienced vulcan.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

2. In the TOS era, Spock's and Sarek's separation from each other was because Spock chose entering Starfleet rather than entering the Vulcan Science Academy, which is what Sarek wanted him to do. Why on gods green earth would Sarek tell him to follow his emotions?

don't know if this was mentioned before, the thread is quite long. sarek revealed to spock that he loved his wife, certainly an emotion outlawed by the vulcan code of conduct, but considering what wonderful wife and mother she was, following the emotion was the right choice for sarek.

And there is precedent for this:

In The Search For Spock, we see Sarek state that his logic was uncertain where his Son was concerned.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Ironic that if anyone was emotionally compromised it was Kirk (before he was exiled to DV). He didn’t even have the excuse of someone personally provoking him. Had he been in command at that point he likely would have charged after Nero with no realistic plan or chance of success.

Um... Kirk DID take charge, and he DID charge after Nero with no realistic plan or chance of success. That's basically what he ALWAYS does, isn't it?

Its been established that they weren't "teetering on the edge of extinction" (the writers admit there were more than 10,000 Vulcans left).

I suppose it is unfortunate that the writers neglected to inform Spock and Sarek of this fact.

In fact its hard to see how Spock could be as badly damaged as was portrayed given he was fit for duty again within an hour or so.

Fit for duty and fit for COMMAND are two completely different things.

The answer is of course that he wasn't. Not until Kirk temporarily pushed him over the edge.

But he was ALREADY over the edge, that's the point. He was so incredibly good at covering this up that nobody but OldSpock would have ever realized this.

Because OldSpock knows, just as Kirk knows, that the only way to stop Nero now is to chase him down and try to prevent him from destroying Earth any way they can. YoungSpock knows this too, but since chasing down Nero and ripping his balls off would give him a HUGE sense of satisfaction he tries to compensate for his incredibly powerful emotional desire by doing the exact opposite. His judgement is therefore clouded in ways that only another Vulcan--in fact, only another SPOCK--would understand.

It's a fine line between "showing" everyone how compromised NuSpock is supposed to be and causing him to appear to be so (even to himself). Could the film’s plot be any more transparent?

"Jim, I just lost my planet. Believe me, I am emotionally compromised. What you must do is get me to show it."

Of course, you've just spent the last several pages trying to convince me you know more about Spock's character than Leonard Nimoy, now you're saying you know more about Spock than Spock does. Good luck with that.

 

[kkozoriz1]

One thing that bothered me was how quickly Spock and Sarek dismissed Vulcan values once the planet was destroyed. It's like "We couldn't even save our own planet. Boy, this logic thing really sucks. Embrace emotions!"

 

[Set Harth]

It's either in the movie, or it don't count.

Single timeline theory turns Picard into Schrodinger's Cat.

Unless Nero sat down and explained everything to him, it's possible that he had no idea where or when he was until the moment he sensed Vulcan being destroyed.

That's irrelevant. The point is what happens afterwards. You're assuming that the two Spocks have no further contact and events in 2387 are allowed to play out in exactly the same way even though we now have characters with foreknowledge of the Hobus star incident.

The only hitch in this theory is, of course, Spock commenting that George Kirk lived to see his son become Captain of the Enterprise; it doesn't fit.

That is one of several places in the film where the existence of a previous (different) timeline is explicitly discussed. That's why it doesn't work. Whether that previous timeline still exists or not is another question.

 

[DonIago]

One thing that bothered me was how quickly Spock and Sarek dismissed Vulcan values once the planet was destroyed. It's like "We couldn't even save our own planet. Boy, this logic thing really sucks. Embrace emotions!"

They would hardly be the first people to briefly abandon their normal exteriors shortly after a massive trauma.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It's either in the movie, or it don't count.

Single timeline theory turns Picard into Schrodinger's Cat.

Unless Nero sat down and explained everything to him, it's possible that he had no idea where or when he was until the moment he sensed Vulcan being destroyed.

That's irrelevant. The point is what happens afterwards. You're assuming that the two Spocks have no further contact and events in 2387 are allowed to play out in exactly the same way even though we now have characters with foreknowledge of the Hobus star incident.

In a predestination paradox, foreknowledge becomes a causal factor. Spock knows that Hobus is going to explode and he knows Red Matter will help save Romulus; what he DOESN'T know is exactly how the events will play out, and his attempt to do things differently (knowing about Nero, knowing that Hobus' explosion moves faster than expected) may very well create the conditions that resulted in the time travel situation in the first place.

The point being, OldSpock still knows certain things that YoungSpock does not.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

One thing that bothered me was how quickly Spock and Sarek dismissed Vulcan values once the planet was destroyed.

Right, because "Let me remind you that your mother--whom you loved more than anything else in the galaxy--always tried to teach you not to ignore your emotions" is totally equivalent to "Fuck logic, let's rape and pillage like Romulans."

 

[Set Harth]

The point being, OldSpock still knows certain things that YoungSpock does not.

Only according to your apparent assumption that he wouldn't tell NuSpock or the Federation those things for some reason, which seems to go against everything we know about his character and his morality.

Spock knows that Hobus is going to explode and he knows Red Matter will help save Romulus

Technically, he knows red matter could save Romulus if used quickly enough the next time around. In the Prime, Mistah Romulus... he dead.

his attempt to do things differently (knowing about Nero, knowing that Hobus' explosion moves faster than expected) may very well create the conditions that resulted in the time travel situation in the first place.

And it also may very well not create the same result, with a much higher degree of probability. ( However, even in the unlikely event that OldNuSpock went through the same exact time travel for some reason, he still wouldn't end up in the past with experience of Kirk's Prime timeline backstory. )

 

[UFO]

There's "fit for duty" and "focusing your rage". Spock wanted revenge on the Romulans - as evidenced by what he says to his father, and what he says to Kirk when Narada's disabled.

I'm sure he did but that was after Kirk blasted away his Vulcan training.

Also, Spock very much was not fit for duty when Kirk "relieved" him.

I wonder why? Provoking someone in a high stress situation is not that difficult. Anyone else would probably have reacted the same. It proves nothing. By the only objective standard (what he actually did) he was coping until then.

He was willing to let Earth be destroyed while he robotically followed Pike's last orders. He was "Galileo Seven" Stupid Spock mode, albeit with a damn good excuse this time. Note that it was an emotional, last-ditch plan that saved the day for the TOS shuttle crew too...

If Spock is so ill suited to command, why was he promoted to the position of first office (twice if you include both universes!)? Why did Pike place him in command? Apparently that can happen if you are a first officer. The "Galileo Seven" episode was clearly written by someone with a bad case of anti-Vulcan prejudice! A surprisingly common affliction apparently As for the solution, if there was nothing left to lose, it was the logical option.

Um... Kirk DID take charge, and he DID charge after Nero with no realistic plan or chance of success. That's basically what he ALWAYS does, isn't it?

I don’t know if he "ALWAYS" does that. Obviously some situations have more opportunities for planning than others and this was one that did. Point is, once he had Scottys trans warp beaming "formula", he hardly needed a plan. They could have beamed some photon torpedoes into the Narada from the other side of the galaxy if they hadn't wanted to save Pike. I grant you that realistic threat assessments are a tad tricky when your opponent goes from being able to destroy 47 Klingon warships at one point, to a pussy that would have difficulty blowing out a candle later on.

Its been established that they weren't "teetering on the edge of extinction" (the writers admit there were more than 10,000 Vulcans left).

I suppose it is unfortunate that the writers neglected to inform Spock and Sarek of this fact.

It believe it was canon that either should have known, so yeah, not their finest hour.

Fit for duty and fit for COMMAND are two completely different things.

Fascinating, but we can only go by what we obverse and he looks/behaves fit for command. I was just surprised he didn't need six months of intensive psychological restructuring if he was that badly off.

But he was ALREADY over the edge, that's the point. He was so incredibly good at covering this up that nobody but OldSpock would have ever realized this.

He is not "over the edge" until he loses it, or makes bad decisions, or can't make any decisions at all. Anything else is opinion and guesswork. Whose rear end was that "emotionally compromised" regulation pulled out of anyway?

Because OldSpock knows, just as Kirk knows, that the only way to stop Nero now is to chase him down and try to prevent him from destroying Earth any way they can.

And Pike knew, just as NuSpock and everyone else on the Enterprice did, that that was suicide. Or so it was presented before the goal posts shifted.

YoungSpock knows this too, but since chasing down Nero and ripping his balls off would give him a HUGE sense of satisfaction he tries to compensate for his incredibly powerful emotional desire by doing the exact opposite. His judgement is therefore clouded in ways that only another Vulcan--in fact, only another SPOCK--would understand.

Your excuses are inventive but no other commander with the sense evolution gave an amoeba, would have gone after Nero at that stage when they had no hope of success. So you can't pretend being sensible demonstrates a psychological problem.

"Jim, I just lost my planet. Believe me, I am emotionally compromised. What you must do is get me to show it."

Well of course they were both under stress. But the fact remains that NuSpock was still capable of doing his job and never looked otherwise until he was sabotaged when he had a right to expect support. You just can’t get round that.

Of course, you've just spent the last several pages trying to convince me you know more about Spock's character than Leonard Nimoy, now you're saying you know more about Spock than Spock does. Good luck with that.

Just trying to stick to the facts, but thanks for your kind wishes.

 

[shapeshifter]

You know there is still debate whether or not this takes place in an altered time line within the Prime Universe or if this is indeed an alternate universe (despite the writers intent). I am one who favors the view that this movie took place in the prime universe we have been watching for 40+ years so from that perspective Spock was trying to put things right in his own universe.

This is one of the many reasons why I don't see the movie as creating a parallel universe.

This is so easy...

Is "Single Timeline" Canon?

Yes.

Is Multiple Universe Canon?

Yes.

Is coexistence possible?

Yes.

The difference in this instance is the Red Matter induced Black Hole. It is what caused the jump from one Universe to another.

Wasn't that easy?

As I have been saying...there are many valid points on either side of the argument. But where in the dialog of the movie is it ever stated that the Red Matter induced Black Hole caused Spock and Nero to jump to a Parallel Universe? It is not there. Your speculation is entirely plausible but because of the ambiguity of the movie so are other explanations.

The debate continues...

It doesn't have to continue, just Let go, Luke!

Let me tell you a quick story, one that shocked and amazed me. My Mom is a Trek fan, I got her into it back at the beginning. She wasn't rabid, like us, just a casual fan.

After she saw Trek 09, I asked her what she thought had happened; was it the same old timeline which had been changed or a brand new universe, like the Mirror Universe? She responded, new universe. "What makes you say that?" I asked. "I don't know, it just seems right." She responded.

Even more amazing, my Step-dad, the King of the Canonistas, agrees. He said he could see how it could be seen as the same, old-but-changed, timeline but he believes the spirit of the film was to create a new Universe while preserving the memory of the old, something he respects of its creators.

I & countless others agree. Turn from the darkside and join us.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The point being, OldSpock still knows certain things that YoungSpock does not.

Only according to your apparent assumption that he wouldn't tell NuSpock or the Federation those things for some reason, which seems to go against everything we know about his character and his morality.

It's not much of an assumption, since Spock obviously DIDN'T tell anyone--other than Kirk--what the hell was going on. He only approaches Spock to tell him not to leave Starfleet and then sends him on his way.

OTOH, Spock is a logical and reserved individual, not a galaxy-hopping philanthropist. He's had enough experience in time travel to know that you can never be sure what consequences your actions will have; this is why he arranges for Kirk to be in command of the Enterprise, but doesn't bother warning him not to pick up the Botany Bay if he should ever encounter it in deep space.

However, even in the unlikely event that OldNuSpock went through the same exact time travel for some reason, he still wouldn't end up in the past with experience of Kirk's Prime timeline backstory.

That's a circular assumption there: when was it ever established that George Kirk's Starfleet career was part of the PRIME TIMELINE backstory? There's no references to Kirk's father ANYWHERE in canon prior to this film.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Fascinating, but we can only go by what we obverse and he looks/behaves fit for command.

Yes, WE can only go on appearances, because we don't know what's going on in Spock's head. OldSpock, however, DOES know, and an older more mature version of himself knows that he is not fit for command.

I think that if YoungSpock were thinking rationally he would have excused himself as soon as he returned to the ship. Instead, he TIGHTENED his grip on command, even to the point of having Kirk--at the time, his own first officer--thrown off the ship and dumped on some backwater planet just for challenging his orders. That isn't a rational or responsible command decision, and in retrospect, neither is trying to run to the Laurentian System to join the rest of the fleet.

He is not "over the edge" until he loses it, or makes bad decisions, or can't make any decisions at all.

No, see, "making bad decisions" is how you KNOW somebody is over the edge. OldSpock doesn't need to wait for him to make a horrible mistake, he KNOWS his judgement is compromised, and he tells Kirk as much when he sends him back.

Your excuses are inventive but no other commander with the sense evolution gave an amoeba, would have gone after Nero at that stage when they had no hope of success.

Except, obviously, for Kirk.

Well of course they were both under stress. But the fact remains that NuSpock was still capable of doing his job

No, he's not. And OldSpock knew this. He wasn't guessing, he wasn't speculating, he KNEW that he was emotionally compromised. He also knew that nobody else on the Enterprise would have realized this until it was too late.

What you can't get around is that SPOCK HIMSELF is saying that he is already emotionally compromised. Don't you remember that exchange? Kirk asks "You want me to emotionally compromise you?" to which Spock replies, "I'm already compromised, I'm just not showing it."