Why "Star Trek" is not right...

[F. King Daniel]

The Valiant was cut off from Starfleet and it was during wartime. Not the same situation at all.

How so? Battlefield promotions handed out during a crisis - seems similar to me. Of course, not only were the stakes in STXI much higher, but the Enterprise crew succeeded.

Kirk gets promoted three times and nobody else gets squat?

Temp replacement Sulu is now helmsman. Uhura is now head of communications. Beagle-killing Delta Vega exile Scotty is now chief engineer. McCoy's head doctor. They got to keep whatever jobs they ended up in. They may well have gotten medals and commendations too.

 

[Satyrquaze]

^ Pike goes from Captain to Admiral (skipping Fleet Captain, Comodore, and possibly Rear Admiral)

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Where exactly did we see Kirk grow up?

My point (I guess I didn't make clear enough) is that we never got to see that in TOS, and since STXI introduces a much younger and less mature Kirk, this is something we can probably look forward to in the near future. That is to say, both as a person and as Captain, Kirk has alot of maturing to do; it'll be interesting to see him go from "Talented Young Upstart" to "I remember reading about your adventures in grade school!"

But he's already Captain Kirk. In TOS we found out parts of his past a little at a time. In XI, we got it all in two hours. And he's still the same person at the end as he was at the beginning.

True as that is, he is not yet the person he was at the beginning of TOS. The Kirk we see by the end of STXI has no deep space experience and has only completed a single mission with the crew of the Enterprise and even then only an impromptu mission in which he wasn't even supposed to be aboard. In TOS he had been in the fleet for more than a decade already, had been in command of the Enterprise for some time, and was (evidently) knocking on the doors of the admiralty. These are two VERY different points in Kirk's life, and in between them, he STILL has alot of growing up to do. And again, that growing up is something we never got to see in Kirk's life, and it's something to look forward to in future films or even novels.

The trials he went through didn't change him at all.

That's my point. He hasn't changed yet. We still haven't got to see him grow up.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^^I would agree that aspect is one of the very few that could have been handled a little smoother.

Agreed. Actually, I would have been happier if Pike had promoted Kirk to first officer and the film closes with him saying "You'll make a fine Captain some day, Jim..." something like that. Those of us who know Trek would recognize this as the really REALLY beginning of the Enterprise's mission (reboot style) while those of us who don't would simply recognize it as a prequel.

 

[BillJ]

Spock Prime new that in the great order of things in the Universe Kirk was destined to be the Captain of the Enterprise therefore the legitimacy of NuSpock's place in the center seat is up for question.

So because Kirk's "best destiny" in one universe is to be a starship commander... it's his destiny in every universe?

Seems a bit presumptuous on Spock Prime's part...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

As Kirk would say, "Arrogant presumption." Spock's known for that.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Spock Prime new that in the great order of things in the Universe Kirk was destined to be the Captain of the Enterprise therefore the legitimacy of NuSpock's place in the center seat is up for question.

So because Kirk's "best destiny" in one universe is to be a starship commander... it's his destiny in every universe?

Seems a bit presumptuous on Spock Prime's part...

You can't blame him for helping to re-assemble the old crew in the face of a terrible threat. Kirk and co's track record is second to none... even if they haven't done any of that stuff yet, may not in this timeline and that this Kirk's life has been quite different to the one Spock Prime knew.

Ahem.

It's not like there were too many other oppertunities for Spock to stop Nero from Delta Vega.

 

[BillJ]

Spock Prime new that in the great order of things in the Universe Kirk was destined to be the Captain of the Enterprise therefore the legitimacy of NuSpock's place in the center seat is up for question.

So because Kirk's "best destiny" in one universe is to be a starship commander... it's his destiny in every universe?

Seems a bit presumptuous on Spock Prime's part...

You can't blame him for helping to re-assemble the old crew in the face of a terrible threat. Kirk and co's track record is second to none... even if they haven't done any of that stuff yet, may not in this timeline and that this Kirk's life has been quite different to the one Spock Prime knew.

Ahem.

It's not like there were too many other oppertunities for Spock to stop Nero from Delta Vega.

Yeah. But what if Kirk in this timeline had simply been a dental assistant who got exiled to Delta Vega for screwing up Captain Spock's new retainer?

 

[Gojira]

Spock Prime new that in the great order of things in the Universe Kirk was destined to be the Captain of the Enterprise therefore the legitimacy of NuSpock's place in the center seat is up for question.

So because Kirk's "best destiny" in one universe is to be a starship commander... it's his destiny in every universe?

Seems a bit presumptuous on Spock Prime's part...

You know there is still debate whether or not this takes place in an altered time line within the Prime Universe or if this is indeed an alternate universe (despite the writers intent). I am one who favors the view that this movie took place in the prime universe we have been watching for 40+ years so from that perspective Spock was trying to put things right in his own universe.

This is one of the many reasons why I don't see the movie as creating a parallel universe.

 

[Set Harth]

You know there is still debate whether or not this takes place in an altered time line within the Prime Universe or if this is indeed an alternate universe (despite the writers intent).

How can the intent of the writers be dismissed that easily? And it's also the intent of Paramount, as we know from Star Trek Online. If you want to believe in a "single timeline" STXI, you're free to do so, it's just not what the creators of the film believed.

 

[DonIago]

I'd still like to know how the existence of multiple timelines can be summarily discarded in light of episodes like Parallels and Mirror, Mirror. Nobody's addressed the question of what we witnessed in those episodes if -not- multiple timelines/alternate realities.

 

[kkozoriz1]

You know there is still debate whether or not this takes place in an altered time line within the Prime Universe or if this is indeed an alternate universe (despite the writers intent).

How can the intent of the writers be dismissed that easily? And it's also the intent of Paramount, as we know from Star Trek Online. If you want to believe in a "single timeline" STXI, you're free to do so, it's just not what the creators of the film believed.

It was also the writers intent that the Delta Vega in the movie was the same one as in Where No Man Has Gone Before. Are we to believe that the Enterprise was stranded on the edge of the galaxy, came upon Delta Vega and didn't simply cross the system to Vulcan instead? That Kirk Prime thought it would be safe to leave gary Mitchell on a planet within visual distance of Vulcan?

Sometimes the intent is simply wrong.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^No, the name was the same as a tribute to the TOS episode. That's all.

 

[UFO]

He seemed to engage them fine in TOS. All I'm suggesting his he shouldn't change much from that.

And all I'm saying is that he hasn't. Had Spock witnessed the destruction of his entire planet and his mother's death in TOS, I seriously doubt the situation would have been any different.

I would be inclined to agree with you if it weren't for the advice he gets and acts on, not to be logical or act unemotionally. Until Kirk did his hatchet job, NuSpock seemed to be operating pretty much within established parameters. And doing a good job too. But apparently he was no match for the "universe" (cough, writers) making sure it was Kirk's destiny, in the grand scheme of things, to be the Captain of the Enterprise!

So do we get a more emotional, less logical Spock, or is this a "one off"? Time, and sequels, will tell.

 

[UFO]

I'd still like to know how the existence of multiple timelines can be summarily discarded in light of episodes like Parallels and Mirror, Mirror. Nobody's addressed the question of what we witnessed in those episodes if -not- multiple timelines/alternate realities.

I don't believe the existence of parallel universes requires that they will be created by all attempts at time travel. At least not within ST history. That seems up for grabs.

 

[DonIago]

I tend to think some methods of time travel create alternate timelines while others don't, though I'm sure some people would be irritated by the inconsistency there.

I think I mentioned in a different thread that after Parallels, at least, you'd think Starfleet Procedures would involve checking quantum signatures anytime a time travel situation occurred, to verify that people were in the timelines they were supposed to be in.

 

[kkozoriz1]

^No, the name was the same as a tribute to the TOS episode. That's all.

"Orci has said, 'We moved the planet to suit our purposes. The familiarity of the name seemed more important as an Easter egg than a new name [would have been]."

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Delta_Vega_(Vulcan_system)


http://trekmovie.com/2009/04/30/interview-roberto-orci-alex-kurtzman/

It was clearly their intent that it was the same planet. However, it's best to ignore writers intent in this case and say that Delta Vega in XI is a different planet. Writers intent can be useful but it don't mean squat unless it's on screen.

 

[DonIago]

It sounds to me like he could just as easily have said, "It's a different planet, we just gave it the same name as an Easter egg."

It's a difference that makes no difference.

Perhaps if asked today he'd say, "Never mind, they're two different planets. Stop the nit-picking madness already!"

 

[OneBuckFilms]

He was speaking figuratively. Where they DID break canon was Chekov's age.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'd still like to know how the existence of multiple timelines can be summarily discarded in light of episodes like Parallels and Mirror, Mirror. Nobody's addressed the question of what we witnessed in those episodes if -not- multiple timelines/alternate realities.

I don't believe the existence of parallel universes requires that they will be created by all attempts at time travel. At least not within ST history. That seems up for grabs.

Since there's no evidence to disprove time-travel as a means of creating alternate timelines it's as good a theory as any (and one mentioned by O'Brian in those DS9 novels I mentioned pages ago, where he hypothosizes that he may be about to create a particular alternate timeline he saw on the Enterprise-D...)

We know that by the (or at least a) 30th century, kids alter history in school. If time travel creates alternates, imagine the mess countless worlds will/have make/made in the multiverse...