Why "Star Trek" is not right...

[Eld Phaedrus]

I tend to think some methods of time travel create alternate timelines while others don't, though I'm sure some people would be irritated by the inconsistency there.

I think I mentioned in a different thread that after Parallels, at least, you'd think Starfleet Procedures would involve checking quantum signatures anytime a time travel situation occurred, to verify that people were in the timelines they were supposed to be in.

Agreed. I know this isn't canon, but it makes for interesting speculation-

In fact, in the novel Preserver, Picard says that such procedures were indeed put in place. The book also implies that the Mirror Universe came about as a consequence of a Schrödinger's Cat-like scenario (with Zephram Cochrane being the cat in the box) created as a consequence of the Ent-E/Borg visit to Earth. In the book, the memory erasure doesn't take hold-and Cochrane asks himself whether he should tell the Vulcans, ultimately leaving it to chance-the flip of a coin. Heads, and the Prime timeline comes about. Tails, and the MU is born.

 

[Gojira]

You know there is still debate whether or not this takes place in an altered time line within the Prime Universe or if this is indeed an alternate universe (despite the writers intent).

How can the intent of the writers be dismissed that easily? And it's also the intent of Paramount, as we know from Star Trek Online. If you want to believe in a "single timeline" STXI, you're free to do so, it's just not what the creators of the film believed.

It is easy to dismiss the intent of the writers because they were ambiguous enough that it left the movie open for interpretation and a debate has been raging ever since.

I admit there are a couple of scenes that can be interpreted to mean that the movie takes place in a parallel universe but there are also many scenes and spoken dialog that points to a more traditional linear single timeline story.

 

[Vance]

Spock Prime himself says that the history he's in is a parallel time line (explaining his own actions to his younger self) and that he made up the entire point of the single time line just to get Kirk focused.

Doesn't that put most of this debate within continuity to rest?

 

[BillJ]

Spock Prime himself says that the history he's in is a parallel time line (explaining his own actions to his younger self) and that he made up the entire point of the single time line just to get Kirk focused.

Doesn't that put most of this debate within continuity to rest?

When exactly does this happen? I'm only aware of one exchange between Spock Prime and Spock(2)...

SPOCK: Father.
SPOCK PRIME: I am not our father. There are so few Vulcans left, we cannot afford to ignore each other.
SPOCK: Then why did you send Kirk aboard, when you alone could have explained the truth?
SPOCK PRIME: Because, you needed each other. I could not deprive you of the revelation of all that you could accomplish together. Of a friendship, that would define you both, in ways you cannot yet realize.
SPOCK: How did you persuade him to keep your secret?
SPOCK PRIME: He inferred that universe-ending paradoxes would ensue should he break his promise.
SPOCK: You lied.
SPOCK PRIME: Oh, I... I implied.
SPOCK: A gamble.
SPOCK PRIME: An act of faith. One I hope that you will repeat in the future at Starfleet.
SPOCK: In the face of extinction, it is only logical I resign my Starfleet commission and help rebuild our race.
SPOCK PRIME: And yet, you can be in two places at once. I urge you to remain in Starfleet. I have already located a suitable planet on which to establish a Vulcan colony. Spock, in this case, do yourself a favor. Put aside logic. Do what feels right. Since my customary farewell would appear oddly self-serving, I shall simply say good luck.

I don't see where this exchange points to what you're saying?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

He seemed to engage them fine in TOS. All I'm suggesting his he shouldn't change much from that.

And all I'm saying is that he hasn't. Had Spock witnessed the destruction of his entire planet and his mother's death in TOS, I seriously doubt the situation would have been any different.

I would be inclined to agree with you if it weren't for the advice he gets and acts on, not to be logical or act unemotionally. Until Kirk did his hatchet job, NuSpock seemed to be operating pretty much within established parameters. And doing a good job too.

He only SEEMED to, and this is important to keep in mind: Vulcans DO have emotions, no matter how hard they try to suppress them. OldSpock was the only one in the universe--other than Sarek--who could have possibly known how Spock was really feeling about all this.

On the other hand, even Sarek's advice isn't his own advice, but Amanda's. At a time when both of them are basically homeless and teetering on the edge of extinction, quoting Vulcan dogma would seem all the more hollow.

So do we get a more emotional, less logical Spock, or is this a "one off"? Time, and sequels, will tell.

We can safely say this is a one-off time. If Spock was ever consistent about anything, it was his tendency to let his control slip whenever a beautiful woman was involved. Admit it, YOUR mother looked like Winona Ryder, you'd be just as defensive.

 

[shapeshifter]

Spock Prime new that in the great order of things in the Universe Kirk was destined to be the Captain of the Enterprise therefore the legitimacy of NuSpock's place in the center seat is up for question.

So because Kirk's "best destiny" in one universe is to be a starship commander... it's his destiny in every universe?

Seems a bit presumptuous on Spock Prime's part...

You know there is still debate whether or not this takes place in an altered time line within the Prime Universe or if this is indeed an alternate universe (despite the writers intent). I am one who favors the view that this movie took place in the prime universe we have been watching for 40+ years so from that perspective Spock was trying to put things right in his own universe.

This is one of the many reasons why I don't see the movie as creating a parallel universe.

This is so easy...

Is "Single Timeline" Canon?

Yes.

Is Multiple Universe Canon?

Yes.

Is coexistence possible?

Yes.

The difference in this instance is the Red Matter induced Black Hole. It is what caused the jump from one Universe to another.

Wasn't that easy?

 

[Vance]

SPOCK PRIME: He inferred that universe-ending paradoxes would ensue should he break his promise.
SPOCK: You lied.
SPOCK PRIME: Oh, I... I implied.

For the 'paradox' to even occur, it would have to be altering a single timeline. Spock Prime lied about that, meaning that he bloody well knew that it wasn't a single timeline.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

SPOCK PRIME: He inferred that universe-ending paradoxes would ensue should he break his promise.
SPOCK: You lied.
SPOCK PRIME: Oh, I... I implied.

For the 'paradox' to even occur, it would have to be altering a single timeline. Spock Prime lied about that, meaning that he bloody well knew that it wasn't a single timeline.

Except Spock Prime never told him a paradox would occur.

Moreover, as has been explained to you a dozen times already, it is never made clear whether the implication he made was "a paradox" or "ending the universe." Since paradoxes are not known to CAUSE a universe-ending condition, then it is still possible to participate in such an event without any ill effects occurring.

The only reason we infer this is a parallel universe is because we know of a possible universe in which Vulcan was not destroyed and Amanda lived until at least the 2280s. That this universe is parallel to the PRIME universe depends entirely on the assumption that OldSpock actually IS from the timeline we're familiar with, and he very well may not be. If not, he could just as easily NuSpock aged 126 years, who is only just now coming to realize that his arrival in the past is the very thing which triggered the events of his youth; therein is the paradox, unbeknownst to Kirk.

 

[Vance]

You're reaching pretty far, Alpha, even by your own standards.

Everything we're supposed to accept says that Prime Spock fled the "TNG-VOY" timeline and went into this new universe. The only real question is how far removed from the TOS timeline is the new one.

Frankly, it only matters to a handful of people. It's easier to accept for me is that the universe Prime Spock went into wasn't the one he expected and wasn't the one that would have led to TOS as we knew it.

But we're all giving it way more thought than anyone involved in the movie actually did.

 

[kkozoriz1]

The point is that you cannot take writers intent as canon regardless. If it's not on the screen then it doesn't count. His intent may have been to win the best screenplay Oscar but that doesn't mean he won it.

 

[BillJ]

The point is that you cannot take writers intent as canon regardless. If it's not on the screen then it doesn't count. His intent may have been to win the best screenplay Oscar but that doesn't mean he won it.

That doesn't even make any sense, an Oscar is what others think of their work.

Orci & Kurtzman decided that their universe splits off from the Prime universe at the point of Nero's incursion.

Now if there is a piece of canon material that says a 'red matter' created black hole doesn't work this way... I'll take it. Otherwise, all you have is writers' intent to go on.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Everything we're supposed to accept says that Prime Spock fled the "TNG-VOY" timeline and went into this new universe.

Based on what? There are no overt references to the original timeline anywhere in the film.

 

[Set Harth]

It is easy to dismiss the intent of the writers because they were ambiguous enough

Not in their statements ( if the inherent logical bankruptcy of "single timeline" is not apparent ).

there are also many scenes and spoken dialog that points to a more traditional linear single timeline story.

There really isn't anything in this film that does so.

Everything just looks like a nail.

If not, he could just as easily NuSpock aged 126 years, who is only just now coming to realize that his arrival in the past is the very thing which triggered the events of his youth; therein is the paradox

Exactly: that ( if it worked ) would be a paradox. The situation as intended by the writers is not inherently paradoxical. Why insist on paradox?

It also doesn't work given the events in the film. Spock Prime's dialogue indicates that he is not "NuSpock aged 126 years", because he comes from a timeline in which Kirk had a different backstory. Also, NuSpock knows all about Spock Prime's time travel by the end of the film, so the whole "who is only just now coming to realize" thing doesn't work.

There are no overt references to the original timeline anywhere in the film.

What would that look like, I wonder? If scenes occurring in the original timeline, lines of dialogue acting as deliberate callbacks to events in earlier films, references to a different sequence of events consistent with the original timeline, scenes based on information from TOS, and the preservation of a character's TNG-era story arc are not enough, what does it take? A blinking popup on the screen, breaking the fourth wall, reading "THIS CHARACTER IS FROM THE ORIGINAL TIMELINE"?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If not, he could just as easily NuSpock aged 126 years, who is only just now coming to realize that his arrival in the past is the very thing which triggered the events of his youth; therein is the paradox

Exactly: that is a paradox. The situation as intended by the writers is not inherently paradoxical. Why insist on paradox?

I don't INSIST on anything. Only that it remains a distinct possibility in light of the events we were presented.

There are no overt references to the original timeline anywhere in the film.

What would that look like, I wonder? If scenes occurring in the original timeline, lines of dialogue acting as deliberate callbacks to events in earlier films, scenes based on information from TOS episodes, and the preservation of a character's TNG-era story arc are not enough... what does it take?

All of which would actually be more likely to appear in an ALTERED timeline as an alternate one. Like I said, it COULD be an alternate, but there's nothing in the film that rules out a totally new timeline with an odd predestination paradox in place.

 

[Set Harth]

Only that it remains a distinct possibility in light of the events we were presented.

It doesn't work at all in light of the events we were presented.

Like I said, it COULD be an alternate, but there's nothing in the film that rules out a totally new timeline with an odd predestination paradox in place.

The predestination paradox scheme fails. You'd have better luck asserting ( contrary to the intent of the creators ) that the Abramsverse started as a preexisting alternate, possibly with its own self-contained "single timeline" mechanism in effect.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Only that it remains a distinct possibility in light of the events we were presented.

It doesn't work at all in light of the events we were presented.

Sure it does. It simply doesn't work in light of speculation on what's BEHIND those events. Speculation aside, it works just fine.

Like I said, it COULD be an alternate, but there's nothing in the film that rules out a totally new timeline with an odd predestination paradox in place.

The predestination paradox scheme fails. You'd have better luck asserting ( contrary to the intent of the creators ) that the Abramsverse started as a preexisting alternate, possibly with its own self-contained "single timeline" mechanism in effect.

Or that the Abrams timeline branches off from Enterprise, which itself was created by the incursion of First Contact and has otherwise nothing at all to do with TOS.

 

[Gojira]

So because Kirk's "best destiny" in one universe is to be a starship commander... it's his destiny in every universe?

Seems a bit presumptuous on Spock Prime's part...

You know there is still debate whether or not this takes place in an altered time line within the Prime Universe or if this is indeed an alternate universe (despite the writers intent). I am one who favors the view that this movie took place in the prime universe we have been watching for 40+ years so from that perspective Spock was trying to put things right in his own universe.

This is one of the many reasons why I don't see the movie as creating a parallel universe.

This is so easy...

Is "Single Timeline" Canon?

Yes.

Is Multiple Universe Canon?

Yes.

Is coexistence possible?

Yes.

The difference in this instance is the Red Matter induced Black Hole. It is what caused the jump from one Universe to another.

Wasn't that easy?

As I have been saying...there are many valid points on either side of the argument. But where in the dialog of the movie is it ever stated that the Red Matter induced Black Hole caused Spock and Nero to jump to a Parallel Universe? It is not there. Your speculation is entirely plausible but because of the ambiguity of the movie so are other explanations.

The debate continues...

 

[Set Harth]

Sure it does. It simply doesn't work in light of speculation on what's BEHIND those events. Speculation aside, it works just fine.

But how does Spock end up in the past with memories of a completely different Kirk backstory than the one created by his time travel, which supposedly created the events of his youth, and how does he conveniently forget about everything that happened in STXI so that his reactions to events in 2387 ( and Abramsverse 2258 ) are exactly those of Spock Prime in the same situation?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Sure it does. It simply doesn't work in light of speculation on what's BEHIND those events. Speculation aside, it works just fine.

But how does Spock end up in the past with memories of a completely different Kirk backstory than the one created by his time travel, which supposedly created the events of his youth, and how does he conveniently forget about everything that happened in STXI so that his reactions to events in 2387 ( and Abramsverse 2258 ) are exactly those of Spock Prime in the same situation?

The simplest explanation is that Old Spock and Young Spock never shared a mindmeld, so neither of them knows how the events played out from their respective points of view. Unless Nero sat down and explained everything to him, it's possible that he had no idea where or when he was until the moment he sensed Vulcan being destroyed. Finding Kirk on Delta Vega and hearing about Pike being kidnapped suddenly rings a bell (remember, he says "By Nero...?") and suddenly he knows EXACTLY what's going on. That, alot more than some arrogant presumption about fate and destiny, would explain why Spock sends Kirk back to the Enterprise the way that he did. He knew it would work--and he knew it was the right thing to do--because he had already experienced on the Enterprise what happened when Kirk arrived and the years that followed, but had never known until that day HOW it had actually happened.

The only hitch in this theory is, of course, Spock commenting that George Kirk lived to see his son become Captain of the Enterprise; it doesn't fit. Unless, of course, Captain George Kirk turns up in a cell in Rura Penthe during the next movie...

 

[Vance]

This is what is meant by 'taking the piss', right?

Honestly, Alpha, this is being stretched so thin that only Deanna Troi could drive a ship into it...