Why Section 31?

[NCC-73515]

A distinction without a difference.

MA explains it well:
- Unlike the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order, it operated on its own, without Starfleet's knowledge or consent
- Its very existence was a deeply buried secret, known only to a handful of people beyond its own membership
- Only some of Starfleet Command's top officers knew for certain of Section 31's existence
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Section_31

 

[Nyotarules]

To paraphrase Garak I'm not surprised there is a Section 31, the Romulans had the Tal Shiar, the Cardassians had the Obsidian Order, the UFP was bound to have a dodgy organisation somewhere. But then I am not in the UFP/Starfleet are god's gift to the Alpha quadrant, camp, I'll leave that mindset to the Picardites.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Same reason why the Temporal Investigators showed up. A reference to the X-Files.

Their names are even anagrams of Mulder and Scully.

 

[fireproof78]

Their names are even anagrams of Mulder and Scully.

Oh, right. I remember that from the novel.

To paraphrase Garak I'm not surprised there is a Section 31, the Romulans had the Tal Shiar, the Cardassians had the Obsidian Order, the UFP was bound to have a dodgy organisation somewhere. But then I am not in the UFP/Starfleet are god's gift to the Alpha quadrant, camp, I'll leave that mindset to the Picardites.

It's just Starfleet Intelligence repurposed for darker stuff. If it wasn't called S31 it would just be something else. S31 is just their story and they are sticking with it.

 

[trekshark]

No issues with it in ds9 or ent. Discovery went overboard with it being in the open.

 

[Charles Phipps]

It seems like Section 31 is an idea that has proven pretty popular with a lot of fans and the current show-runners alike. What's the appeal?

Spies are awesome.

I don't see how spies are any particularly weirder than navy stories, which is what most Star Trek is all about.

Section 31 is treated as the bad guys but that was a mistake by DS9 in my opinion because it just makes our heroes come off like hypocrites when they ALSO do difficult moral decisions to minimize the bad and maximize the good. Condemning S31 while also having Sisko do a mission to get the Romulans in the war seems silly.

And yes, part of this is the cynicism of Star Trek fans that when faced with people like the Romulans or Cardassians that you might just fight dirty to protect yourself. It just depend whether you think S31 should be EVIL, misguided, or actually just every bit as good as Starfleet but more covert.

It doesn't help that Starfleet Intelligence probably works exactly the same way.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Section 31 wasn't evil in Discovery. Just stupid, building an AI which came to life and went full-on Skynet.

I'm guessing the Terminator movies never existed in the Trek universe

 

[Lord Garth]

Section 31 wasn't evil in Discovery. Just stupid, building an AI which came to life and went full-on Skynet.

I'm guessing the Terminator movies never existed in the Trek universe

They're lucky since there have now been more bad Terminator movies than good.

 

[Tenacity]

and even in ST:ID

Remove all mentions and all aspects of section thirty-one from Into Darkness. Really what would be different about the movie, would the movie have been a lesser story?

not everyone is going to find safety and security in utopia.

Maybe there's more "utopia" for some people in the federation than for others.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Section 31 wasn't evil in Discovery. Just stupid, building an AI which came to life and went full-on Skynet.

I'm guessing the Terminator movies never existed in the Trek universe

Well they were probably lost in the Eugenics Wars.

Remove all mentions and all aspects of section thirty-one from Into Darkness. Really what would be different about the movie, would the movie have been a lesser story?

Is there a story without Section 31? The entire thing is an extended "Bush lied about the War in Iraq" metaphor with Admiral Marcus claiming the Klingons will have destroyed the Enterprise and using Khan's attack on S31 as their particular version of 9/11 to justify it. I.e. Saddam is helping Osama.

I mean, they don't do much but that's because Khan kills everyone IN S31 in the opening minutes.

 

[dupersuper]

It was fine in small doses, but Discovery 31 was ridiculous. I'm glad it was taken down in the novels, and as far as I'm concerned, that's why it's well known by Lower Decks.

The entire concept completely undermines Starfeet and the Federation as the squaky clean "good guys" and personally I love that. Trek's optimistic future has always been implausible to me, and the idea that Kirk, Pike, Picard and the rest are the public face while these other guys are in the shadows making it all work through less-than-nice means appeals to me.

Yup, you're from CBS all right.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Yup, you're from CBS all right.

Honestly, what bothers me about S31 is that they rarely seem to actually show S31 doing anything outright evil.

Our heroes are able to avoid violence in large part BECAUSE they play political games, are sneaky, underhanded, and do clever plots like deny the Cardassians the secret doom weapon or rescue Picard via blackmail.

You avoid outright war by being smarter than the totalitarian dictatorships around you.

So why is S31 the bad guys?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Section 31 was one of two huge misfires for DS9 (the other being repeated trips to the Mirror Universe).

 

[Charles Phipps]

Section 31 was one of two huge misfires for DS9 (the other being repeated trips to the Mirror Universe).

Which is why everyone...loves it?

I mean, it keeps showing up the same reason the Borg do. Because it's awesome.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Which is why everyone...loves it?

I mean, it keeps showing up the same reason the Borg do. Because it's awesome.

IDIC

 

[BillJ]

Which is why everyone...loves it?

It is clear from this thread, and others, that everyone doesn’t love it.

 

[Tenacity]

The entire thing is an extended "Bush lied about the War in Iraq" metaphor

Can't see that particular metaphor in the movie.

You avoid outright war by being smarter than the totalitarian dictatorships around you.

Or in the cases of the Klingons and the Romulans, soundly kicking their asses whenever the two of you spar.

And rattle your sabor louder than they can.

Section 31 was one of two huge misfires for DS9

I think DS9 is the only time S31 really worked.

It is clear from this thread, and others, that everyone doesn’t love it.

However quite a few enjoy the concept.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I think DS9 is the only time S31 really worked.

The idea is interesting and if it had been left as a one shot story, with us left wondering if it actually existed or not, then it wouldn't be so bad, but like the Klingons and Borg before it the concept has been done to death.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Can't see that particular metaphor in the movie.

Marcus wants war with the Klingon Empire and considers them a threat so he's going to blame them for Khan's attack.

Kirk incensed about the attack on Earth, ignores the bad intelligence to attack Kronos and almost plays right into Marcus' hands.

 

[fireproof78]

Is there a story without Section 31? The entire thing is an extended "Bush lied about the War in Iraq" metaphor with Admiral Marcus claiming the Klingons will have destroyed the Enterprise and using Khan's attack on S31 as their particular version of 9/11 to justify it. I.e. Saddam is helping Osama.

I mean, they don't do much but that's because Khan kills everyone IN S31 in the opening minutes.

That was the intent, yes. It was interesting. Plus the drone attack.

Marcus wants war with the Klingon Empire and considers them a threat so he's going to blame them for Khan's attack.

Kirk incensed about the attack on Earth, ignores the bad intelligence to attack Kronos and almost plays right into Marcus' hands.

Kirk does, and that's the most interesting part of the film that he follows along with Marcus he is actually willing to listen to Spock.