Why only 150?

[C.E. Evans]

Or at least easier to build simple things than complex ones. Re-equipping a cargo bay into ten staterooms might really take an eyeblink, as it only involves building trivial things such as partitions and beds and plumbing

I don't think plumbing is a trivial thing, but the rest would be more on the side of redecorating an existing space, IMO.

- if it's possible to build a new seat for a shuttlecraft, the same machinery ought to have the capacity to build ten beds in a trivially longer time, with trivially higher expenses, and no design time or effort needed.

Or those ten beds are already kept in the cargo bay for situations where they might be needed.

it's either a case that astrometrics and stellar cartography are the same thing or two separate things

Neither of the two things is actually known to be a "department", despite Memory Alpha claims to the contrary. Rather, in "Lessons", we learn that fairly obscure things like Quantum Mechanics and Spectral Analysis would be departments, or probably more like sub-departments of some greater whole (the TOS term appears to be "section"). Odds are, then, that Stellar Cartography, Astrometrics, Quantum Mechanics and Spectral Analysis are all part of the greater Science Department, and represent competing disciplines on the same, relatively low organizational level.

In fact, the high-ranking Nella Daren on the E-D was the head of a department called Stellar Sciences; both Astrometrics and Stellar Cartography would probably be sub-departments of this, each with some labs dedicated to the respective disciplines. And since Quantum Mechanics was in competition with Daren's departments, it probably falls outside Stellar Sciences and is under some other high-level umbrella, for example Physics.

Which is why I'm more inclined to think that stellar cartography and astrometrics are separate but related things.

 

[JB2005]

Q's son held the rank of Captain.

Which Janeway never took seriously in the first place.
Aside from that, why didn't Q give himself the highest ranking Admiral position?

He did, in Encounter at Farpoint. Afterwards, he preferred to have the same rank as Picard.

"You're no Starfleet Admiral Q"

You may be all the other things you dress up as, but you're no Admiral...

 

[Deks]

Chakotay actually said that the Voyager always did have an astrometrics lab in "Revulsion", but that it needed to be upgraded and enhanced. But as there was also mention before that episode of the Voyager having a stellar cartography division, it's either a case that astrometrics and stellar cartography are the same thing or two separate things, with the astrometric lab having always being aboard the Voyager in either case.

Janeway also said in Season 7 ('Shattered' episode) the following:
'Voyager doesn't have an Astrometrics lab', after which, Chakotay said:
'Harry designed it, or WILL design it'.

I disagree with that it would have taken less time. I think the same number of people and resources would have been assigned to the task of upgrading the lab even at Utopia Planitia. Chakotay basically gave Kim carte blanche to the project, so Kim had all he needed to do the job, IMO. In fact, he thought the engineering team could really take over without him.

Not necessarily. There's a limited number of people from Voyager's crew that could work on the project at any given time, as other systems would need to be maintained as well and the crew needs rest. As such, the resources of Utopia Planitia would be higher, because you can have 10 teams working on 1 thing in various shifts, whereas on Voyager, only say 3 or 4 teams would be available for a project ... and you can also have a larger number of people per team at U.P.

As far as the Delta Flyer, I would liken that to being more akin to the construction of a car or van. It takes longer to develop and test the design than to really build it. The hardest part is getting all the parts.

Except that the Flyer was already developed/designed and tested in simulations, so they only had to build it.
Voyager as any SF ship would probably have the means to assemble a shuttlecraft... but it's entirely possible that that the ship would lack certain construction technologies that make the process more automated and instead, live crew was mostly required which probably slowed the process down.

But I do agree with the premise that the longest period of waiting would be down to designing/developing the ship - they already have the parts or can easily make them.

I disagree with this also. It took years to develop, build, and assemble the components of the International Space Station with the technology we have. I doubt that it really could have really been done in a few months. I also think that there are limits, even with 24th-Century technology, of how quickly certain things can be done. I think it's easier and faster to build small things than big things.

Building and assembling the components of the ISS took far less time than it took to design them.
Drawing boards take up most of the time...
Given our industrialized nature, it would be relatively trivial to build components for that level of technology since we had to follow instructions.
Furthermore, money dictates most of our limitations...
I'm not saying it would have been a 'snap', but I would say we could have done it a bit faster.
And besides, one would be wise not to take everything for granted that people in positions of power say about our technical capabilities... because if the governments want something done in a very short amount of time, people will find a way to do it, and they can easily 'throw money' into the mix to make it happen.

Of course there are limits to 24th century tech and that it's faster to build smaller ships (such as the Defiant) than a Galaxy class ship... but I'm also saying that what we saw on-screen was also very '21st century like' for the sake of drama.
Construction of the Flyer in U.P, would likely be faster because they have access to industrial grade replicators that can probably make things in larger quantities that regular replicators can't (in which case the crew would need to make smaller components and assemble them - in case of lacking automated facilities that would be dedicated to this work, manual assembly is needed).

 

[C.E. Evans]

Chakotay actually said that the Voyager always did have an astrometrics lab in "Revulsion", but that it needed to be upgraded and enhanced. But as there was also mention before that episode of the Voyager having a stellar cartography division, it's either a case that astrometrics and stellar cartography are the same thing or two separate things, with the astrometric lab having always being aboard the Voyager in either case.

Janeway also said in Season 7 ('Shattered' episode) the following:
'Voyager doesn't have an Astrometrics lab', after which, Chakotay said:
'Harry designed it, or WILL design it'.

Which contradicts what Chakotay originally said in Season 4 about the astrometrics lab not being upgraded since the Voyager left spacedock.

Not necessarily. There's a limited number of people from Voyager's crew that could work on the project at any given time, as other systems would need to be maintained as well and the crew needs rest. As such, the resources of Utopia Planitia would be higher, because you can have 10 teams working on 1 thing in various shifts, whereas on Voyager, only say 3 or 4 teams would be available for a project ... and you can also have a larger number of people per team at U.P.

I don't think there was any limitation in the upgrading/construction of the astrometrics lab on the Voyager. I believe Kim had more than enough help with an engineering team at his disposal.

Except that the Flyer was already developed/designed and tested in simulations, so they only had to build it.

Exactly my point. Designing it was the hard part, and even then it was taking the existing concept of a shuttlecraft and making it larger, sleeker, and more powerful (with a few personal touches from Paris himself). If you have the blueprints and all the parts already in place, the actual assembly time of that vehicle shouldn't have taken that long.

Voyager as any SF ship would probably have the means to assemble a shuttlecraft... but it's entirely possible that that the ship would lack certain construction technologies that make the process more automated and instead, live crew was mostly required which probably slowed the process down.

I don't think that was the case with the Delta Flyer. They worked around the clock to build it within seven days. In comparison, we can build a car or a light airplane in just a few days (if not quicker) without working around the clock.

Building and assembling the components of the ISS took far less time than it took to design them.
Drawing boards take up most of the time...
Given our industrialized nature, it would be relatively trivial to build components for that level of technology since we had to follow instructions.
Furthermore, money dictates most of our limitations...
I'm not saying it would have been a 'snap', but I would say we could have done it a bit faster.

I believe that you still have to include designing, development, and testing into the construction of any new spacecraft. The actual assembly is just the final phase and should be the quickest and easiest, IMO.

I also believe, however, that once the prototype is built and has proven itself sound, additional units can be built in less time due to the application of lessons learned during the first time.

And besides, one would be wise not to take everything for granted that people in positions of power say about our technical capabilities... because if the governments want something done in a very short amount of time, people will find a way to do it, and they can easily 'throw money' into the mix to make it happen.

Pretty much sums up the Space Race, which was more about politics than anything loftier.

Of course there are limits to 24th century tech and that it's faster to build smaller ships (such as the Defiant) than a Galaxy class ship... but I'm also saying that what we saw on-screen was also very '21st century like' for the sake of drama.

I can see where you're coming from and I can even agree with it to some extent. But I also think that they're building things that are complex even by 24th-Century standards and that it's amazing that they can crank them out as fast as they do. What they can do in a week or a month would probably take us years (if not longer).

Construction of the Flyer in U.P, would likely be faster because they have access to industrial grade replicators that can probably make things in larger quantities that regular replicators can't (in which case the crew would need to make smaller components and assemble them - in case of lacking automated facilities that would be dedicated to this work, manual assembly is needed).

I always thought the Voyager already had industrial replicators (as a standard feature aboard Federation starships) and that it was the main reason why the crew was able to build so many replacement shuttles and the two Delta Flyers.

 

[tighr]

I always thought the Voyager already had industrial replicators (as a standard feature aboard Federation starships) and that it was the main reason why the crew was able to build so many replacement shuttles and the two Delta Flyers.

For canon purposes, I really wished they would have bothered to show an industrial replicator, or at very least mention their existence on screen. It would have been the perfect handwavium.

At least TNG had an episode where they showed the replimat (Data's Day, I believe).

 

[MacLeod]

I seriously doubt that a starship would be fitted with an Industrial replicator, given that dialouge on DSN seems to indicate they were a valubale resource. The Federation could only spare 2 (I think) to help Bajor following the withdrawl of the Cardassian occupation Force.

Though that might only have been that particular model was limited in number.

^Though mentioning that VOY was say transprting one as opposed to fitted with one, would have handwaived a lot of issues away or at the very least reduced them.

Instead of what we got, which for quite a few viewers stretched credability to breaking point if not beyond.

 

[Satyrquaze]

If we could only somehow harness the power of the threads on the BBS covering everything thats wrong with Star Trek: Voyager... we could probably power an actual starship.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

They made Voyager too magical. I think the initial idea in Star Trek is that several of the things that ships need really do need to be constructed in heavily industrial environments - photon torpedoes for example. Voyager made it so that the ship could replace anything and everything which was totally absurd. The Enterprise had to go back to a starbase after "Distaster" but the USS Voyager was able to reconstruct their ship which had basically been hollowed out after "The Killing Game". The writers should have basically been more co-operative and integrated some realistic situations of fixing Voyager even if not central to the story of the week. Some lip service at least.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I seriously doubt that a starship would be fitted with an Industrial replicator, given that dialouge on DSN seems to indicate they were a valubale resource. The Federation could only spare 2 (I think) to help Bajor following the withdrawl of the Cardassian occupation Force.

Actually, it's not that far-fetched to think that Federation starships have industrial replicators. The ones the Federation gave to Cardassia were said to be Class-4. It's not implausible that starships may be equipped with Class-1s that are fairly commonplace.

Though that might only have been that particular model was limited in number.

That's what I think. The Class-4s referred to in DS9's "For The Cause" could be mammoth machines and are harder to come by.

 

[tighr]

I seriously doubt that a starship would be fitted with an Industrial replicator, given that dialouge on DSN seems to indicate they were a valubale resource. The Federation could only spare 2 (I think) to help Bajor following the withdrawl of the Cardassian occupation Force.

I think there were political reasons for only giving two. Later, the Federation gave 12 replicators to Cardassia after the Klingon's attacked their power plants (those are the ones hijacked by the Maquis). Dialog made it seem that they could have given them even more.

But, that doesn't rule out the possibility that there are smaller units fit specifically for starships. In fact, it makes sense. It's just never really been mentioned.

Purely hypothetical: I wonder if a Class-4 replicator could replicate a class-1 replicator? Ahh, the possibilities.

 

[Deks]

They made Voyager too magical. I think the initial idea in Star Trek is that several of the things that ships need really do need to be constructed in heavily industrial environments - photon torpedoes for example. Voyager made it so that the ship could replace anything and everything which was totally absurd. The Enterprise had to go back to a starbase after "Distaster" but the USS Voyager was able to reconstruct their ship which had basically been hollowed out after "The Killing Game". The writers should have basically been more co-operative and integrated some realistic situations of fixing Voyager even if not central to the story of the week. Some lip service at least.

Uhm... realistically speaking, the Enterprise still had warp and numerous other capabilities after the 'Disaster' took place.
As such, using all of their technology, they could simply park in a star system abundant in energy and just use it to convert it into matter for replication of necessary alloys, components, etc.
Each SF ship in the 24th century (given their technology) can survive without a starbase just fine.
Besides, numerous other systems are independent on star-ships which can help a ship survive.
If they have transporters (and shuttles do), they can use them for replication purposes.

Furthermore, the Enterprise wasn't 'lost' in deep space cut off from SF - in which case, the ship could go to a starbase to expedite repairs. Voyager had no such luxury... but that doesn't mean the crew can't affect major repairs/upgrades themselves.

Of course that Photon torpedoes can be replaced.
I mean seriously, if SF can make them, then other races surely could.
Think about it... they are antimatter warheads.
The casings would be relatively simple to replicate, and antimatter can be fashioned via several methods in deep space (from stellar phenomena which SF ships have been seen use to power themselves or supplement certain resources) if ships are on their own.
Voyager also encountered several friendly star-faring races with equal technological capabilities.
It's entirely possible the crew either made replacements in systems either abundant with energy by making a pit stop and doing it themselves (conversion of energy to matter for one thing and using those systems to mine ore or harness certain particles that can supplement their antimatter reserves - like the omicron particles from the live nebula in Season 1) or simply traded for needed supplies with friendly races (which under ideal circumstances is faster since the crew wouldn't have to spend time making anything).

 

[You_Will_Fail]

You see, your defense rests on speculation of the faux science of Star Trek. That doesn't interest me whatsoever. You say "of course" Photon torpedoes can be easily replaced and yet its established in universe that there is no way for Voyager to create new ones. This suggests it needs to be in some sort of more advanced, powerful industrial environment than an Intrepid class ship can provide.
And from a dramatic point of view, the magical regenerative abilities of Voyager were just plain bad for telling an interesting story about a ship thousands of lightyears from home turf. Its impossible for me to buy Voyager repairing itself after "The Killing Game" so quickly, half the ship was practically hollow. The writers should have addressed this, they did so in Enterprise and we got one their best episodes "Damage".

 

[WarpCore]

Purely hypothetical: I wonder if a Class-4 replicator could replicate a class-1 replicator? Ahh, the possibilities.

Not only should a Class 4 be able to replicate a Class 1, but a Class 1 should be able to replicate a Class 4. Or at least parts to build the larger piece of equipment. All you should need is a pattern or patterns. The more ridiculous lines about replicators in all of Trek are "we can't replicate xxx". Ok, then use something else, and why would you or someone else use a material that cannot be replicated in the first place?

 

[gastrof]

After all the points raised, there's only one solution. I think we need to view Voyager as not being canon.

I know it was on screen for seven years, but maybe one of Janeway's great great grandparents was killed at the start of nuTrek/Trek'09/TrekXI!

 

[dulcimer47]

You know, I realize I'm very critical of Voyager, but I don't think unfairly...

This makes me think of yet another contrast between Ron Moore's BSG and Voyager...

In BSG, they have a running tally of the population of the fleet, kept on a whiteboard, not some high-tech LCARS display. If they had done something like this in Voyager, it would have been even more effective, since the crew population was so much smaller...

When you think about it, Moore's BSG is very much the anti-Voyager - a single, small group of humans trying to surive through the galaxy to find their home (in BSG, a new home, in VOY, Earth).

 

[Deks]

You see, your defense rests on speculation of the faux science of Star Trek. That doesn't interest me whatsoever. You say "of course" Photon torpedoes can be easily replaced and yet its established in universe that there is no way for Voyager to create new ones. This suggests it needs to be in some sort of more advanced, powerful industrial environment than an Intrepid class ship can provide.
And from a dramatic point of view, the magical regenerative abilities of Voyager were just plain bad for telling an interesting story about a ship thousands of lightyears from home turf. Its impossible for me to buy Voyager repairing itself after "The Killing Game" so quickly, half the ship was practically hollow. The writers should have addressed this, they did so in Enterprise and we got one their best episodes "Damage".

I said that Photon Torpedoes can be replaced (the word 'easy' didn't enter the equation).
Having said that, while Janeway did mention that they had no way to replace the torpedoes initially, keep in mind how that was very early on in their trip through the D.Q. and the crew hadn't improvised on numerous things by that point... although Torress was able to make a crude dilithium processing refinery on-board.
So, how exactly do we know that the crew hadn't fashioned other things of industrialized nature so they can do things on the go?
Although, it's much easier to say that they probably replaced them by trading for necessary resources with friendly races off-screen.
The statement that they had no way to replace them was a bit... premature.
They were going after omicron-particles to augment their anti-matter reserves in that same episode...
It's a pretty good probability that if they can do that with the warp-core, then they can probably do it with other systems as well.

'The killing game' internal damage Voyager suffered was rather large indeed... however, the Hirogen could have supplied Voyager with extra materials and resources before departure and the ship could have found a friendly pit-stop in the meantime where they could have arranged for internal repairs.
Although I agree that they could have given us a throwaway bone by saying that the ship is still in the process of being repaired.
Furthermore... the cut bulkheads could have been replaced (they had to store them somewhere - and provided they hadn't entirely removed them, it's possible the crew simply re-connected them once the Hirogen left - which is probably exactly what happened).

 

[Timo]

On the other hand, in dramatic terms, we could easily assume that Janeway would not plunge into a new adventure until after repairing the damage suffered in the previous one. If something really severe happened, the ship would spend the following weeks or months licking her wounds in some friendly port, and the only adventures we would be missing would involve Tom and Harry's hijinks in the Lame Monster Inn and Luxa's House of Excellent Repute.

Galactica kept on moving and collecting scars both because the ragtag fleet was being chased most of the time, and because there were no friendly ports of call. Our hero ship was subject to a very different set of dramatic rules.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

8760 Hours in a year.

We saw just 17 hours and 20 minutes a season of Kathy's hijinks.

Plenty of time between and inside episodes of unseen "action" to do all sorts.

 

[MacLeod]

You see, your defense rests on speculation of the faux science of Star Trek. That doesn't interest me whatsoever. You say "of course" Photon torpedoes can be easily replaced and yet its established in universe that there is no way for Voyager to create new ones. This suggests it needs to be in some sort of more advanced, powerful industrial environment than an Intrepid class ship can provide.
And from a dramatic point of view, the magical regenerative abilities of Voyager were just plain bad for telling an interesting story about a ship thousands of lightyears from home turf. Its impossible for me to buy Voyager repairing itself after "The Killing Game" so quickly, half the ship was practically hollow. The writers should have addressed this, they did so in Enterprise and we got one their best episodes "Damage".

I said that Photon Torpedoes can be replaced (the word 'easy' didn't enter the equation).
Having said that, while Janeway did mention that they had no way to replace the torpedoes initially, keep in mind how that was very early on in their trip through the D.Q. and the crew hadn't improvised on numerous things by that point... although Torress was able to make a crude dilithium processing refinery on-board.
So, how exactly do we know that the crew hadn't fashioned other things of industrialized nature so they can do things on the go?
Although, it's much easier to say that they probably replaced them by trading for necessary resources with friendly races off-screen.
The statement that they had no way to replace them was a bit... premature.
They were going after omicron-particles to augment their anti-matter reserves in that same episode...
It's a pretty good probability that if they can do that with the warp-core, then they can probably do it with other systems as well.

'The killing game' internal damage Voyager suffered was rather large indeed... however, the Hirogen could have supplied Voyager with extra materials and resources before departure and the ship could have found a friendly pit-stop in the meantime where they could have arranged for internal repairs.
Although I agree that they could have given us a throwaway bone by saying that the ship is still in the process of being repaired.
Furthermore... the cut bulkheads could have been replaced (they had to store them somewhere - and provided they hadn't entirely removed them, it's possible the crew simply re-connected them once the Hirogen left - which is probably exactly what happened).

Sci-Fi fans are known to be continiuty minded, the writers of Star Trek: Voyager are fully aware of this. So we have a line of dialouge saying they have no way of replacing the torpedeos when they have used them up. Then you as a writer need to say how you got around that problem. Given the premise of the show you wanted to make things more difficult for our heroes so limiting torpedeos is one thing you can do. If you have no intention of abiding by your own limitations then don't limit yourself.

It also stretchs creadability that at the start of each new adventure the ship looked like it had just left Utopia for the first time. Yes they might be able to reapir the ship on the fly, but without access to a starbase facility it is reasonable to expect this to take longer. Perhaps showing the damage being repaired over the course of a couple of episodes would have been better

The simple fact is the writers for the most part couldn't even be bothered to pay lip service to these things.

In the early seasons of Voyager, I don't recall many races having photon torpedeos. As the futher away from the AQ they were the less advanced the civiliastions appeared to be.

 

[Timo]

The writers probably had very little to do with it. In order to show damage being repaired, the producers would have to be shaken down for the money to build the special sets and shoot the VFX. Likely end result: more bottle shows, fewer guest stars, no new sets or VFX for alien things. Essentially, the new BSG with likeable characters - a worst case scenario if there ever was one.

Timo Saloniemi