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Why not just use the pilot design?

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You mean in that first pilot that is such a bitch to get a hold of? That one NBC didn't really like because Spock looked like a demon and it had a *gasp* woman as the ship's first officer, who wore pants and was intelligent? You know, the first officer who was very cold and relatively unemotional? And since NBC said he had to get rid of either the alien or the woman first officer, GR decided to combine the Spock character with the Number One character to make him more alien? Imagine that. :shifty:


Then Gene decided to make it in continuity with "The Menagerie". And apparently, Kirk and Pike are the same age, but Pike was captain 13 years prior.
 
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And, yes, Trek did that for forty years. And then it died. Obviously, sticking to the old formula wasn't working too well. Time to try something new.
-and-
And how'd that work out for them? Shows and films of diminishing returns and rating.
It wasn't the internal consistency that killed off the shows/films... it was bad writing with uninspiring characters.

Maybe, maybe not. But either way, why not try something new? Because some whiney fanboys on the Internet feel that one fictional production somehow "invalidates" previous fictional productions? Not good enough.

Creativity is superior to stagnation. Doing something new is preferable to playing by the rules.

We've seen this argument over and over again... Batman hasn't been internally consistent between movies, series or comic books, so who cares at this point. Superman hasn't been internally consistent between movies, series or comic books, so who cares at this point. Spider-man hasn't been internally consistent between movies, series or comic books, so who cares at this point. James Bond hasn't been internally consistent between movies and books, so who cares at this point.

Right. And what I'm suggesting is, if Star Trek evolves to allow multiple interpretations instead of only one continuity, maybe that's a GOOD thing.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is. Having multiple continuities, multiple versions of the story, has enabled characters like Batman or Superman to survive in the popular consciousness and remain relevant to audiences for almost seventy years.

Think about that. Seven decades, people have been reading, listening to, or watching these characters. Seven decades, and still they're bringing in new fans and saying new things. Would anyone know or care about Batman today if Bob Kane, Bill Finger, and DC Comics had decided that Batman would only ever have one continuity and it would be a completely realistic, self-consistent one? No. Batman would have been killed off decades ago, and works like The Dark Knight would never have been produced.

Or consider the hundreds of permutations of the Legend of King Arthur. Everything from The Sword in the Stone to Le Morte d'Arthur to The Once and Future King to The Mists of Avalon to.... It's wonderful.

Star Trek has a far better chance of surviving and staying relevant as the years go on if it follows that lead. I love the original Trek continuity. But I think it's time for Trek to embrace the idea of multiple continuities, multiple versions. Greater adaptability increases a story's chances of survival; a tree that bends with the wind is more likely to survive than one that stays rigid and gets blown over.

And besides, for all we know, there's some perfectly good explanation for why all these things that seem to violate continuity actually don't. We won't know until we see the film.

Having different versions of the story is not the same thing as "not making an effort to be true to yourself."
Yes, actually, it IS.

No, it's not, because you're relying on the idea that there's one "true" version of the story and that any deviation from that is bad. But what makes one version "truer" than another? What makes Mallory's version of the Matter of Britain superior to John Steinbeck's, or TH White's, or Marion Zimmer Bradley's? You may have your favorite, but that's subjective, not objective.

And, yes, Trek did that for forty years. And then it died. Obviously, sticking to the old formula wasn't working too well. Time to try something new.

In short; you can break the having become stale formula, without changing the continuity. And continuing to claim it can't, or it's the same thing, shows how completely unwilling you are to grasp simple logic.

I didn't say you couldn't, in theory, break the stale formula without changing the continuity. But that's what people have been trying for a while now, and it hasn't worked yet. So I say: Try something new. Do something no one's done before. Let's move Star Trek to the next phase in the evolution of any long-lived story and embrace the idea of multiple continuities. Those who like the original will always have it, and those who prefer something different can see something new in the newer continuities.

When that "new continuity" came about through lazy, uncreative, unwilling to challenge oneself writing; nothing but formulaic Hollywood movie totally empty of everything meaningful including science, then yes, it IS defacing it.

No, defacing it is letting it die because no one other than a handful of eccentrics gives a shit about it anymore.

No, "evolution" does not mean that Star Trek can't remain "pure", or rather keep the essence of what Star Trek is intact.

In that sense, I agree completely. The essence of what Star Trek is has nothing to do with shared continuity: It has to do with whether or not it tells a story about a future that we can all aspire to, about a better world and a better life for future generations. As long as the story is optimistic, then the essence of what Star Trek is will remain the same, and in that sense, its "purity" will remain.

He had the opportunity to stay pretty faithful and didn't (and we don't need to see the film to see that),
Um, yeah, actually we do.
No, actually, we don't. I refer you to the ridiculous Enterprise built on Earth scene. I refer you to all the other scenes talked about.

I'm not convinced that something like the Enterprise being built on Earth -- and BTW, Roddenberry wrote in The Making of Star Trek that he thought at least part of the ship was built on Earth -- is a violation of continuity. So far as I know, there is no canonical data on where the ship was built.

Odd, isn't it? That the writers apparently didn't think so inconsistent that they couldn't use it. It's almost like they establish that... shock, Spock wasn't always so well in control of his emotions. What a horror! It's inconsistent! There was character development!

I would argue that the idea that Spock would be grinning in one episode and claiming that he's always suppressed his emotions in another is inconsistent, but even if I grant you that, you can't possibly tell me that something like "The Alternate Factor"'s claiming that anti-matter is a substance that will destroy the universe if it comes into contact with normal matter is consistent with later episodes establishing that it's the stuff that powers the ship, or that Mister Leslie dying in one episode and being alive in the next isn't inconsistent.
 
"The Menagerie" : "Nobody makes record tapes that detailed"...well, except in the next episode, when it is standard procedure....
 
The Battle of Britain is real. The events of yesterday are real. But Star Trek is not, and aspects of fiction change. This is why there are so many contemporary versions of Shakespeare, even though the stories were always set centuries ago.

At it's base, this is what some people have the most difficult time wrapping their head around. To many people, Star Trek is REAL.

In some ways scary-but true.
 
At it's base, this is what some people have the most difficult time wrapping their head around. To many people, Star Trek is REAL.

In some ways scary-but true.

Exactly so.

I love "Star Trek," but it's a TV series made when I was a kid.

I would never, ever expect that folks remaking a four-decade old TV series as a big budget movie would not change anything significant about it - certainly it would be silly to think that they'd make everything look exactly the same.

I've seen quite a number of versions of the Wyatt Earp legend, made as TV shows and films over the decades, and in no two did Tombstone look identical. Nor did anyone dress or talk identically to the earlier versions. Nor did all the details of the plots mesh exactly with every other (I've seen Doc Holliday die at the O.K. Corral and I've seen him survive - only one really happened). And that's real history - more or less.
 
This Enterprise redesign was done with the same level of care that Bruckheimer used when creating the wide angle shots of the American aircraft carriers in Pearl Harbor. Meaning not much. This design looks like a bad mix between 1701-A and 1701-D, meaning it doesn't look like it came between 1701-A and NX-01 at all. It doesn't have a 50's feel to it, it has a 2008 feel to it. If Abrams was being faithful to Trek, he wouldn't have changed the design. He's playing the Hollywood game and changing things because he can. Then he minces words and says he's not doing a reboot, while completely ignoring the classic visual design in every way. Had he just admitted he wanted to completely change the look and gone full bore with a reboot then we would not be having this conversation. I still wouldn't like the new design, but I'd say it's his vision so he can do what he wants. If he's not doing a reboot, then it isn't his vision, it's Roddenberry and Jeffries visions and Abrams would just be adding to it. It's like Bruckheimer putting a modern wide deck aircraft carrier in a movie set 10 years before then were even invented, it shows a careless lack of concern for one part of your audience. Anyone getting involved with Trek should know that the fans take such departures very personally. I for one am just going to write this off as a reboot unless I see Jeffries design on the screen.

Are u insane? The aircraft carriers in Pearl Harbor were REAL SHIPS, WITH REAL HISTORY! They actually happened. Thats why the ships they used in Pearl Harbor were wrong, especially since they were not flattop carriers like the Japanese used.

The Enterprise is a fictional ship. JJ can do whatever the fuck he wants with it, and it will not effect actual history in any way.
 
Yes, it is. Having multiple continuities, multiple versions of the story, has enabled characters like Batman or Superman to survive in the popular consciousness and remain relevant to audiences for almost seventy years.

Think about that. Seven decades, people have been reading, listening to, or watching these characters. Seven decades, and still they're bringing in new fans and saying new things. Would anyone know or care about Batman today if Bob Kane, Bill Finger, and DC Comics had decided that Batman would only ever have one continuity and it would be a completely realistic, self-consistent one? No. Batman would have been killed off decades ago, and works like The Dark Knight would never have been produced.

Or consider the hundreds of permutations of the Legend of King Arthur. Everything from The Sword in the Stone to Le Morte d'Arthur to The Once and Future King to The Mists of Avalon to.... It's wonderful.

First: those comics are BAD. (I'm not counting the exceptions, the graphic novels, often in less big companies here, I'm talking the superheroes.) It's not a wonder it's considered kiddy entertainment and that's exactly what they are. And things continue as they are, there's a good chance they won't remain that way. You see; new fans? Not really. Readership is declining constantly; they're increasing prices per comic to compensate for the loss.

And part of the reason that the readership is declining, is because they've been doing the same thing for decade after decade after decade after decade. The same thing over and over again. They're "reboots" aren't really reboots, they don't do much if anything different; it's just the same story AGAIN.

You know, kinda what Star Trek has been doing in the past decade.

Also, Batman and Arthur NEED retelling. They're stuck in a niche, a hole, a tiny place. Gotham an Britain - the Dark Ages.

Star Trek in contrast is not. Star Trek has a massive canvas, multiple time places, an ENTIRE FFING Galaxy (and a universe really) not to mention side dimensions. Do you have ANY idea just HOW BIG a galaxy is!? Just HOW MUCH is left UNTOLD!? And that's just in one time moment, let alone the future, other dimensions, and other galaxies.

There's no NEED to retreat the same little niche again, and again, and again. Tell some of the untold stuff already!

But no - again, with Vulcans - in Voyager and then AGAIN in Enterprise. What about the Andorians for a change, the Bolians, the Caitians the TELLARITES! So much NEW, DIFFERENT, unexplored stuff... (And that's just the things we actually have seen glimpses off - the truly uknown; it can... well, fill a galaxy.)

But go back and do one little thing over and over again. Kirk/Bones/McCoy again!? Could it be used to really explore some truly new and unknwon stuff as well? Possibly, but it's going to be relatively hard. Kirk/Bones/McCoy are going to have to be in there as the main characters; the depth of exploration Spock (and his species) got in TOS and the movies gave him is pretty much impossible. That would require the unknown and new or (virtualy) unexplored to part of the main cast/themes/subjects of a (series of/or movies).

Star Trek
has a far better chance of surviving and staying relevant as the years go on if it follows that lead. I love the original Trek continuity. But I think it's time for Trek to embrace the idea of multiple continuities, multiple versions. Greater adaptability increases a story's chances of survival; a tree that bends with the wind is more likely to survive than one that stays rigid and gets blown over.

No, actually, it doesn't. Because it means we get to see the same thing over and over and over and over again and again and again. It's exactly the reason why Trek got so stale in the last decade. It's the reason why to keep it from getting tedious and repetitive an Arthur movie really only comes along once every ten years or so (unless they stumble on a truly original take, or rather spin). Which would mean you'd get a Star Trek only once a decade.

And besides, for all we know, there's some perfectly good explanation for why all these things that seem to violate continuity actually don't. We won't know until we see the film.
All not mattering one bit.

No, it's not, because you're relying on the idea that there's one "true" version of the story and that any deviation from that is bad. But what makes one version "truer" than another? What makes Mallory's version of the Matter of Britain superior to John Steinbeck's, or TH White's, or Marion Zimmer Bradley's? You may have your favorite, but that's subjective, not objective.
No, it's because Star Trek doesn't need to be REtold. Star Trek could have been bigger and grander, and has been so for quite some while. There's so much to explore, so much to do - why retell the same story?

I didn't say you couldn't, in theory, break the stale formula without changing the continuity. But that's what people have been trying for a while now, and it hasn't worked yet. So I say: Try something new. Do something no one's done before. Let's move Star Trek to the next phase in the evolution of any long-lived story and embrace the idea of multiple continuities. Those who like the original will always have it, and those who prefer something different can see something new in the newer continuities.
NO! They have NOT been trying to break the stale formula. The only one's who tried and somewhat succeeded are the DS9 writers, and that's only because they outright defied the studio bosses and their little gopher.

For a decade, they've done NOTHING but redoing the exact same formula, the exact same formulaic story telling, the exact same stories over and over again - to the point of lifting stories and visuals from PREVIOUS Star Trek shows as practical carbon copies. Nemesis vs TWoK anyone? Trip with a spoiled princess - James T Kirk with a spoiled princess. Phase cannons vs. Phasers same ffing SFX, they get one little difference; the spacial torpedoes, and after 2 years? It isn't the same enough! Bring in the photon(ic) torpedoes, with the exact same SFX as Voyager! Yay!

It's the same, the same, the same, the same, and there's been NO attempt at change WHATSOEVER. Everything was done to RESIST change, which is SO utterly blatant in Enterprise.

No, defacing it is letting it die because no one other than a handful of eccentrics gives a shit about it anymore.
No, defacing it, is continuity it on with crap to be dumped upon the magnificence that came before. Letting something die, is often showing respect.

In that sense, I agree completely. The essence of what Star Trek is has nothing to do with shared continuity: It has to do with whether or not it tells a story about a future that we can all aspire to, about a better world and a better life for future generations. As long as the story is optimistic, then the essence of what Star Trek is will remain the same, and in that sense, its "purity" will remain.
Then Forbidden Planet is Star Trek, Babylon 5 is Star Trek, and on, and on. Have so few characteristics and you can have rectancular "saucer sections", and triangular ion drives - and no warp drive, and Kirk be a cold-blooded murderer, etc. etc.

No, actually, we don't. I refer you to the ridiculous Enterprise built on Earth scene. I refer you to all the other scenes talked about.
I'm not convinced that something like the Enterprise being built on Earth -- and BTW, Roddenberry wrote in The Making of Star Trek that he thought at least part of the ship was built on Earth -- is a violation of continuity. So far as I know, there is no canonical data on where the ship was built.
This isn't continuity, this is idiocy, stupidity, and scientifically as inaccurate as you can get. It has no substance, it's just a a kewl scene of Kirk driving up to it with his motor cycle, envoking umpteenth other movies having done the same. The substance is gone, it's just style.

Odd, isn't it? That the writers apparently didn't think so inconsistent that they couldn't use it. It's almost like they establish that... shock, Spock wasn't always so well in control of his emotions. What a horror! It's inconsistent! There was character development!
I would argue that the idea that Spock would be grinning in one episode and claiming that he's always suppressed his emotions in another is inconsistent, but even if I grant you that,
Has he actually TRUTHFULLY claimed that he's ALWAYS suppressed his emotions SUCCESFULLY all the time? Last time I checked, he's racistically constantly putting down humanity for being such barbarians, and them Vulcans being oh, so much better. Doesn't exactly sound like someone who has his emotions perfectly suppressed now does it?

you can't possibly tell me that something like "The Alternate Factor"'s claiming that anti-matter is a substance that will destroy the universe if it comes into contact with normal matter is consistent with later episodes establishing that it's the stuff that powers the ship, or that Mister Leslie dying in one episode and being alive in the next isn't inconsistent.
It claimed that an anti-matter version of one person touch a matter version of that same person touching would destroy the universe; this anti-matter version standing on the soild of matter planet.

It's a really bad science, really bad episode.

It's inconsistant in its quality, but not continuity.
 
God, it's like watching a ping-pong match...

(goes looking for popcorn)

Oh, and if it makes anyone feel better, this movie takes place in an alternate timeline that's very similar to the one we've seen for the past n years...but has some differences. There, it's not in the same reality, so you don't have to worry about the inconsistencies. Problem solved, your timeline remains unaffected. And any future stories that take place in the reality being espoused by this movie? You got it, also the same alternate timeline.
 
This isn't continuity, this is idiocy, stupidity, and scientifically as inaccurate as you can get. It has no substance, it's just a a kewl scene of Kirk driving up to it with his motor cycle, envoking umpteenth other movies having done the same. The substance is gone, it's just style.
Wrong. Given 23rd century Trek technology, there's no reason whatsoever it could not be built, mostly, on the ground. Even Roddenberry theorized it was so. It DOES allow for a cool scene, but it is not scientifically inaccurate, any more than is building it in a vacuum from the keel up.
 
Another orbital drydock scene adds no "substance" to the drama either.

"Oh but we'll probably really build big spaceships that way! It makes more sense."

Maybe. Mainly what it does is make some folks watching the movie feel smart because they appreciate what they believe to be "scientific accuracy" in the movie, without adding a thing of value to the movie itself.
 
Are u insane? The aircraft carriers in Pearl Harbor were REAL SHIPS, WITH REAL HISTORY! They actually happened. Thats why the ships they used in Pearl Harbor were wrong, especially since they were not flattop carriers like the Japanese used.

The Enterprise is a fictional ship. JJ can do whatever the fuck he wants with it, and it will not effect actual history in any way.
Tom (and everyone else who keeps tossing out this bogus argument)... please stop pretending that people who make this argument "don't know the difference between fantasy and reality."

That's either an indication that you don't understand the argument being made, or (and this is much worse) it's a LIE... an attempt to mock an argument rather than addressing it.

In case it's the first option - here's the simple version: The issue is not about "accurate portrayal of real events." Nobody has ever claimed that. And every time someone pretends that people are claiming that, it's a distraction from the real point.

The issue is "willful suspension of disbelief." Ever heard the term?

This is why consistency is important. The audience, in order to be drawn into a dramatic story, needs to be able to forget, and not be constantly reminded, that "what you are watching is a bunch of SoCal kids playing make-believe on a stage someplace."

While you're watching the movie, or the tv show... you need to be able to believe, even if only for the two hours you're sitting there, that what you're seeing is important. You need to CARE.

We all know that Zach Quinto isn't really Spock... and that Leonard Nimoy isn't really Spock. But we care about what happens to the fictional character of Spock while we watch the TV show or the movie or whatever... don't we?

Here's the problem. And this is why people keep bringing this up. Every thing you see that's wrong... with "wrong" being defined as "in direct conflict with something you already are aware of"... you are reminded that "this movie is nothing but a bunch of Socal kids hanging out on plywood and plexiglass sets just outside of Los Angeles."

If you see a WWII movie... and let me say that again... "MOVIE"... aka "form of entertainment, not an actual historical documentary using real footage shot at the time"... where something isn't correct, you are drawn out of your ability to suspend your disbelief in THAT MOVIE. Doesn't mean you don't believe in WWII. But you don't believe in the movie anymore.

And here... if you see something that's "wrong"... that doesn't agree with the Star Trek you know... you're also, similarly, drawn out of your ability to suspend your disbelief in the movie. Doesn't mean that "Star Trek" would be somehow "real" if the movie doesn't do that, though, does it?

The "you guys are morons cuz you think Star Trek is real" argument is BULLSHIT. And everyone who's ever used it knows damned well that it's nothing other than bullshit.

So please... knock it off.
 
Are u insane? The aircraft carriers in Pearl Harbor were REAL SHIPS, WITH REAL HISTORY! They actually happened. Thats why the ships they used in Pearl Harbor were wrong, especially since they were not flattop carriers like the Japanese used.

The Enterprise is a fictional ship. JJ can do whatever the fuck he wants with it, and it will not effect actual history in any way.
Tom (and everyone else who keeps tossing out this bogus argument)... please stop pretending that people who make this argument "don't know the difference between fantasy and reality."

That's either an indication that you don't understand the argument being made, or (and this is much worse) it's a LIE... an attempt to mock an argument rather than addressing it.

In case it's the first option - here's the simple version: The issue is not about "accurate portrayal of real events." Nobody has ever claimed that. And every time someone pretends that people are claiming that, it's a distraction from the real point.

The issue is "willful suspension of disbelief." Ever heard the term?

This is why consistency is important. The audience, in order to be drawn into a dramatic story, needs to be able to forget, and not be constantly reminded, that "what you are watching is a bunch of SoCal kids playing make-believe on a stage someplace."

While you're watching the movie, or the tv show... you need to be able to believe, even if only for the two hours you're sitting there, that what you're seeing is important. You need to CARE.

We all know that Zach Quinto isn't really Spock... and that Leonard Nimoy isn't really Spock. But we care about what happens to the fictional character of Spock while we watch the TV show or the movie or whatever... don't we?

Here's the problem. And this is why people keep bringing this up. Every thing you see that's wrong... with "wrong" being defined as "in direct conflict with something you already are aware of"... you are reminded that "this movie is nothing but a bunch of Socal kids hanging out on plywood and plexiglass sets just outside of Los Angeles."

If you see a WWII movie... and let me say that again... "MOVIE"... aka "form of entertainment, not an actual historical documentary using real footage shot at the time"... where something isn't correct, you are drawn out of your ability to suspend your disbelief in THAT MOVIE. Doesn't mean you don't believe in WWII. But you don't believe in the movie anymore.

And here... if you see something that's "wrong"... that doesn't agree with the Star Trek you know... you're also, similarly, drawn out of your ability to suspend your disbelief in the movie. Doesn't mean that "Star Trek" would be somehow "real" if the movie doesn't do that, though, does it?

The "you guys are morons cuz you think Star Trek is real" argument is BULLSHIT. And everyone who's ever used it knows damned well that it's nothing other than bullshit.

So please... knock it off.

Alright, let's talk about willing suspension of disbelief.

If that's the issue, then whether or not a work of art is required to stay consistent with previous installments in a canon is wholly dependent on whether or not the audience is willing to suspend its disbelief over an inconsistency. The audience behind the original "Zorro" stories, for instance, didn't mind it when the sequels to the first one, which ended with Zorro revealing his real identity to be Don Diego Vega, had Zorro's real name being once again a secret (and Don Diego's name being changed to Don Diego de la Vega).

So the real question is, will the majority of the audience of Star Trek be willing to suspend their disbelief over the aesthetic differences between TOS and this film?

We won't know that until it opens.
 
The issue is "willful suspension of disbelief." Ever heard the term?


While you're watching the movie, or the tv show... you need to be able to believe, even if only for the two hours you're sitting there, that what you're seeing is important. You need to CARE.


This where I have some concern over the whole timeline thing. Yes, I would love to see continuity throughout but lets face. Mistakes have been made all along the way. But as you stated. "Willful suspension of disbelief". It is a 2 hour movie. Not a 40 year timeline. In that window, I only care about that 2 hours. Worrying about 40 years is a little scary.
 
You mean in that first pilot that is such a bitch to get a hold of? That one NBC didn't really like because Spock looked like a demon and it had a *gasp* woman as the ship's first officer, who wore pants and was intelligent? You know, the first officer who was very cold and relatively unemotional? And since NBC said he had to get rid of either the alien or the woman first officer, GR decided to combine the Spock character with the Number One character to make him more alien? Imagine that. :shifty:


Then Gene decided to make it in continuity with "The Menagerie". And apparently, Kirk and Pike are the same age, but Pike was captain 13 years prior.

I think it more likely that Kirk, in that episode, is the same age that Pike was when his promotion to Fleet Captain took place. It's obvious that Kirk and Pike could not literally have been the same age; Kirk is in his thirties during TOS, and "Menagerie" takes place 13 years prior to that. So Kirk would have been 20, tops, when "Menagerie" happened.
 
Maybe, maybe not. But either way, why not try something new? Because some whiney fanboys on the Internet feel that one fictional production somehow "invalidates" previous fictional productions? Not good enough.

Creativity is superior to stagnation. Doing something new is preferable to playing by the rules.
Actually, it is funny... you have worked so hard to talk about larger works that lack internal continuity, but I get the feeling that you have no idea what the benefits of that internal continuity actually brings with it. Maybe (and this is just a guess) you are being this dismissive because your only point is to defend what you've said and to keep the fight going... which is fine, there are many people here that are more than willing to oblige.

But you may want to reread what you are posting. You are painting yourself into corners needlessly while chasing your own argument's tail.

First, look at your examples. They are all set in a fictional present day. The characters are designed with flexibility because present day continues to move on. But sometimes not following a fictional present day is better (a good example is King Kong).

Star Trek isn't set in any form of present day. It is set in it's own distant future. And one of it's wonderful aspects is it's continuity.

So why is continuity great? I'm assuming by your dismissive nature of those of us who like continuity that you yourself have no idea, so lets look into it... but without using Star Trek. No, instead lets use the series of J. R. R. Tolkien books as our example.

So why is the consistency within Tolkien's work so special? It has always been for the readers of those books to immerse themselves in the study of another world (even though they know the stories already). And while technology wasn't at the heart of Tolkien's world, language was. Tolkien took great pains to create rich languages and histories for the different groups within his books. And there are people who have spent years in the study of these things.

To you, based on your arguments, Star Trek is a disposable piece of pop culture. Which is fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion (though based on your opinion, you taking as much time and energy arguing your points makes you more of a freakish whiney fanboy then the worst of us). But some of us don't see this as disposable pop culture, and in fact some of us see Star Trek as the most inspired collective works of the modern age. And here is the thing... what is amazing is that it has achieve (for the most part) this as a collective series of works rather than the vision of a single person. That so many people worked together with a common vision for so long, that these people with diverse interests compliment each others' works and inspire the people that are pushing the boundaries of the real world is unparalleled in human history.

For me, the failing of Star Trek has been corporate interests with no imagination attempting to milk money out of what they see as an entertainment version of McDonald's. They only see the stuff that brings in the fastest return... usually special effects. To the corporate heads all Star Trek is a special effects strung together by cliche and technobabble. And that is what we've gotten from Trek in the last 15 years or so.

The failing has nothing at all to do with internal continuity... it has to do with a corporate mind set that puts flash and style before substance. Quite frankly, there is only one production company with the correct mind set to save Star Trek... and that is Pixar. Why? Because for every production they do they live by the motto "Story is King".

Honestly... Star Trek needs an non-effects movie. Story for the sake of story. A story so compelling it had to be told.

Why do we need a new timeline for that? Why do we need an overly bright and cluttered bridge for that? Why do we need a funky stylized Enterprise for that?

New actors... sure. Cleaned up sets and the like... sure. But the biggest failing I see is that no one in the new Trek movie knew when to say "too much". Less is more in Star Trek. Less crap means people can't tie the production to any one thing (which I personally felt was the failing of more recent Trek and it's over reliance on technobabble). Don't explain everything and don't worry about it... just tell the story.


I'm not seeing anyone brave enough to live up to original Trek. To not do the bankable thing but rather do something compelling. Either we separate Star Trek from those who only see it as a form of McDonald's, or we should live with what we have already (hundreds of hours of Trek).

But continuity was never the problem.
 
I think it more likely that Kirk, in that episode, is the same age that Pike was when his promotion to Fleet Captain took place.

Yeah, but that's not what was said. Mendez made them roughly the same age.

This is just one of the many, many examples of "Star Trek" never having been self-consistent, especially in the TOS days before they worried so much about that.
 
I think it more likely that Kirk, in that episode, is the same age that Pike was when his promotion to Fleet Captain took place. It's obvious that Kirk and Pike could not literally have been the same age; Kirk is in his thirties during TOS, and "Menagerie" takes place 13 years prior to that. So Kirk would have been 20, tops, when "Menagerie" happened.

Except that is what the episode claims...Pike and Kirk were the same age.
 
This is just one of the many, many examples of "Star Trek" never having been self-consistent, especially in the TOS days before they worried so much about that.
And I don't think that many of us cared that much about small inconsistencies throughout Trek history as long as they didn't pull us out of the compelling story we were being presented with.

Funny, I love when people need black and white positions like this.

Frankly, for me (and I can only really speak for myself) the amount of inconsistencies I can live with is proportional to how compelling a story I'm watching. If I'm really into a story, I can be very forgiving of that type of stuff.

This type of entertainment has to be a give and take relationship. As an audience we trust the director and actors with our suspension of disbelief. That suspension is a very personal trust (specially with SciFi or fantasy), and there are a large number of people in the world who don't trust shows and movies like this enough to give them a chance. Star Trek has a trusting audience already, and not taking that trust seriously damages that relationship.

Star Trek V was a perfect example of a complete violation of that trust for me.

You've been doing this for so long, how in the world could you have missed the basics of the relationship between the performers and their audience?


And as a side note... why haven't you continued to jump on others for their PC infractions? Or was I a special case? ;)
 
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