Why not just bring back Kirk before Star Trek XI?

[Thomas Riker]

Therin of Andor said:

Thomas Riker said:
I'm starting to think the hatred is with the character and not the actor.

What "hatred"?

Because we don't feel that JJ Abrams' movie should be weighed down by an attempt to shoehorn an Old Kirk (and William Shatner) into his script?

The last thing we want is people walking out of ST XI saying, "That was good, except they really shouldn't have tried to undo Kirk's death in 'Generations' just to get people to come to this movie."

And Shatner has said, "I don't do cameos", so Old Kirk's part would have to have been significant to the whole story. Suddenly the script the studio was so happy with becomes a laundry list of "things that should be included", which was the major complaint about "Generations" in the first place.

I was referring to the shatner bashing not Trek XI, a separate issue I believe. All I was saying is that there seems to be a lot of negative sentiment towards William Shatner and James Cawley on this board and I am at a loss as to the reason. The sad thing is that this is what Chris Pine is in for. We may see the same thing with him next year.

It is worth mentioning that sometimes I forget that some trek fans did not become fans from watching TOS, and thus may not have the same respect and hero worship that I have for William Shatner.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Alright Superman. I went back five pages and looked in all the Shatner/ Kirk threads. Could I have missed some? Yes. Could there have been some commentary in a thread not dedicated to Shatner? Yes. But from what I found, there were 2 cases that one could argue was Shatner-hating. They both came from the USA TODAY POLL thread. They were:

Dale Hoppert: Too old, too fat, too late, no Shat.

Which he promptly followed with saying that he liked TOS, he liked Kirk, but Shat wasn't in any shape to do Kirk. And...

Temis the Vorta: I want Shat to get a cameo as a fat old lecherous Orion slave trader. Chris Pine as Kirk pulls ut a phaser and vaporizes him. THAT is the way Shat should go out - melodramatic and looney to the last.

Even better if Shat the Orion were the first guy Kirk kills on the job.

More of an ironic joke than an actual bash. So, from what I dug up, I'm not seeing this deep, seething hatred for the Shat. Like I said, I could have missed a thread, but all the "anti-Shatner" stuff I can find is saying that there is no reason or major desire on their part to see Shatner reprise the role.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Good examples, but I don't think that facts are going to have a big impact at this point.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Thomas Riker said:
there seems to be a lot of negative sentiment towards William Shatner and James Cawley on this board and I am at a loss as to the reason.

Tall Poppy Syndrome.

 

[T'Cal]

Kirk's dead. Let him RIP. I blame two people for this: Berman and Shatner. Berman for putting it in GEN and Shatner for agreeing to do it. Despite all the plot holes in the nexus story in GEN, I do enjoy it and found Shatner's performance entertaining. But he allowed Kirk to be killed off. Deal with it and move on.

The prequel idea is the only plausible way to bring back the character and that definitely means a younger actor. Shatner is now 14 years older than he was in GEN. A story that take place pre-GEN would still require another actor to play the role. Shatner cannot carry off playing a character 15 or more years younger than he really is. It's too late for him. As for Spock being reanimated, the concept required a scene in TWOK ("Remember..."), the entire film TSFS, and all of TVH to work. Shoving Shatner back in the role with a short explanation would be hokey and cheap. Let it go. Shatner is done with Kirk in the movies. Let him write his Shatnerverse novels and be happy with that.

 

[Thomas Riker]

Therin of Andor said:

Thomas Riker said:
there seems to be a lot of negative sentiment towards William Shatner and James Cawley on this board and I am at a loss as to the reason.

Tall Poppy Syndrome.

More like Terellian Death Syndrome!

 

[Thomas Riker]

T'Cal said:
Kirk's dead. Let him RIP. I blame two people for this: Berman and Shatner. Berman for putting it in GEN and Shatner for agreeing to do it. Despite all the plot holes in the nexus story in GEN, I do enjoy it and found Shatner's performance entertaining. But he allowed Kirk to be killed off. Deal with it and move on.

The prequel idea is the only plausible way to bring back the character and that definitely means a younger actor. Shatner is now 14 years older than he was in GEN. A story that take place pre-GEN would still require another actor to play the role. Shatner cannot carry off playing a character 15 or more years younger than he really is. It's too late for him. As for Spock being reanimated, the concept required a scene in TWOK ("Remember..."), the entire film TSFS, and all of TVH to work. Shoving Shatner back in the role with a short explanation would be hokey and cheap. Let it go. Shatner is done with Kirk in the movies. Let him write his Shatnerverse novels and be happy with that.

How come (with regards to appearance, age etc.) it is too late for shatner but not for nimoy?

 

[archeryguy1701]

Because the big proposal, other than resurrection, is having it happen before Generations. Nimoy's bit, on the other hand, is taking place in the 24th Century. So, the reason he can look older is because, fancy that, his character is older. However, if you look at the resurrection idea, Kirk would presumably be resurrected to te state he was in before he died, so the current Shat is still too old.

 

[Thomas Riker]

archeryguy1701 said:
Because the big proposal, other than resurrection, is having it happen before Generations. Nimoy's bit, on the other hand, is taking place in the 24th Century. So, the reason he can look older is because, fancy that, his character is older. However, if you look at the resurrection idea, Kirk would presumably be resurrected to te state he was in before he died, so the current Shat is still too old.

I have not seen any evidence whatsoever that "nimoy's bit" is going to be set in the 24th Century or even originate from their. For all we know it could be from the 23rd! I think the main tolerance for it, and believe me this is a compliment to Leonard Nimoy, is that he has not changed all that much in the last 15 years. When he appeared in Unification it looked like he just walked off the Undiscovered Country set. Given this we could be dealing with a Spock from any timeframe post-TWOK.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

If I'm not mistaken, when he appeared in Unification he HAD just walked off the ST VI set. The episode was designed as a tie-in with the movie.

 

[Thomas Riker]

EliyahuQeoni said:
If I'm not mistaken, when he appeared in Unification he HAD just walked off the ST VI set. The episode was designed as a tie-in with the movie.

Oops I should have done my homework Sorry

 

[Samuel T. Cogley]

My posts above are in reference to Shatner/Kirk bashing across the board and over the last several months. I assumed that was obvious, but maybe I should have been more clear.

Also, to people who seem to have trouble connecting dots (i.e., "Sam likes Shatner, therefore he obviously believes Shatner is God; Shatner is perfect; and Shatner MUST be in Star Trek XI"). Learn to read.

More later, if this hangover ever goes away. (Along with that nasty taste of cigars in my mouth.)

Oh... And Dennis and I have a rich traditon of fighting. Think of it like when Shatner fights Shatner in "The Undiscovered Country." It will happen again.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Samuel T. Cogley said:
Oh... And Dennis and I have a rich traditon of fighting. Think of it like when Shatner fights Shatner in "The Undiscovered Country."

No matter what you morph into, I'm not kissing you.


Unless it's like, you know, Lexa Doig.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

archeryguy1701 said:
Because the big proposal, other than resurrection, is having it happen before Generations. Nimoy's bit, on the other hand, is taking place in the 24th Century. So, the reason he can look older is because, fancy that, his character is older. However, if you look at the resurrection idea, Kirk would presumably be resurrected to te state he was in before he died, so the current Shat is still too old.

Spock goes back in time to stop Nero or whatever as part of the plot device used. Events take place in the past making some subtle changes in the timeline. There is no mention of resurrecting Kirk/Nexus/etc. New timeline/universe is established for new Trek cast so that they may have new adventures (sequels) without being beset with canon issues. As protector of new timeline/universe Spock (Nimoy) returns to 24th century. Without mentioning a damn thing, Kirk(Shatner) is there. Because of events that took place in the past of the new timeline/universe (see butterfly effect) Kirk survives in this time period. Yes, he's older, fatter, whatever, but he has survived Veridian and is now living in this new timeline. Nothing has to be said or justified save a line or two.

To be honest, I really believe this was the story that JJ and crew cooked up a year or so ago. I think they wanted Shatner all along but only for this cameo, and I think Shatner put up the stop sign at that point. And thta's sad, because it would have been an effective an fun story. We could have had the story we are getting plus the icing on the cake of Shatner for those few of us who would have liked to see Nimoy/Shatner one final time.

 

[MoonlightSinatra]

Kirk should have not been killed in GEN, and SPock should have stayed dead after TWOK. That way, you could find a story that could feature the Shat in this film.

Since that isn't the case, no Shat in 08.

 

[Holytomato]

"To be honest, I really believe this was the story that JJ and crew cooked up a year or so ago. I think they wanted Shatner all along but only for this cameo, and I think Shatner put up the stop sign at that point. And thta's sad, because it would have been an effective an fun story. We could have had the story we are getting plus the icing on the cake of Shatner for those few of us who would have liked to see Nimoy/Shatner one final time."

The Shat is Evil.

 

[Noname Given]

Samuel T. Cogley said:

Starship Polaris said:
I wouldn't want to get in the way of anyone defending the good Captain's sacred honor in every thread, though. Carry on.

Is that what I've been doing? I thought I was just giving Shatner a little credit, something that has obviously (and oddly) become controversial (at a Star Trek website, no less). I'll have to go double check every single thread, just to make sure you aren't exaggerating.

In any event, anytime you post more than two or three sentences, I know I've touched a nerve.

I'm all for giving Shatner the credit he deserves (and he deserves A LOT with regard to 'Star Trek' over the last 40 years).

That said, it DOESN'T/SHOULDN'T mean he automatically gets written into a new and recast 'Star Trek' film just because the Writers of the film found that having 'old Spock' (with the role reprised by the original actor) works for the story that they want to tell in that film.

I'm always amazed by people qnd 'Star Trek fans' (tm) who believe that William Shatner should be shoe-horned in just because the script uses Leonard Nimoy - AND remeber that if Nimoy's comments are accurate; his apearance is MORE than just 'book-ending' the film where he starts, we go to flashback, and then at the end maybe go back to 'old Spock' for a final comment or two. Nimoy has stated that if that was all they gave him; he wouldn't have agreed to do the role - and given that he DID pass on Star Trek: Generations after reading what they had fo 'Mr. Spock' in the script; I tend to believe he has a larger role here.

 

[Samuel T. Cogley]

Noname Given said:

Samuel T. Cogley said:

Starship Polaris said:
I wouldn't want to get in the way of anyone defending the good Captain's sacred honor in every thread, though. Carry on.

Is that what I've been doing? I thought I was just giving Shatner a little credit, something that has obviously (and oddly) become controversial (at a Star Trek website, no less). I'll have to go double check every single thread, just to make sure you aren't exaggerating.

In any event, anytime you post more than two or three sentences, I know I've touched a nerve.

I'm all for giving Shatner the credit he deserves (and he deserves A LOT with regard to 'Star Trek' over the last 40 years).

That said, it DOESN'T/SHOULDN'T mean he automatically gets written into a new and recast 'Star Trek' film just because the Writers of the film found that having 'old Spock' (with the role reprised by the original actor) works for the story that they want to tell in that film.

Agreed. I have never suggested otherwise.

 

[Superman]

FabiusMaximus said:

archeryguy1701 said:
Because the big proposal, other than resurrection, is having it happen before Generations. Nimoy's bit, on the other hand, is taking place in the 24th Century. So, the reason he can look older is because, fancy that, his character is older. However, if you look at the resurrection idea, Kirk would presumably be resurrected to te state he was in before he died, so the current Shat is still too old.

Spock goes back in time to stop Nero or whatever as part of the plot device used. Events take place in the past making some subtle changes in the timeline. There is no mention of resurrecting Kirk/Nexus/etc. New timeline/universe is established for new Trek cast so that they may have new adventures (sequels) without being beset with canon issues. As protector of new timeline/universe Spock (Nimoy) returns to 24th century. Without mentioning a damn thing, Kirk(Shatner) is there. Because of events that took place in the past of the new timeline/universe (see butterfly effect) Kirk survives in this time period. Yes, he's older, fatter, whatever, but he has survived Veridian and is now living in this new timeline. Nothing has to be said or justified save a line or two.

To be honest, I really believe this was the story that JJ and crew cooked up a year or so ago. I think they wanted Shatner all along but only for this cameo, and I think Shatner put up the stop sign at that point. And thta's sad, because it would have been an effective an fun story. We could have had the story we are getting plus the icing on the cake of Shatner for those few of us who would have liked to see Nimoy/Shatner one final time.

Now you see, here's a man with vision.

He sees the big picture.

It really is as easy as this to bring Shatner's Kirk back.

Either Abrams is bullshitting about not being able to find a "non-fannish" way of bringing him back or he just lacks vision.

We'll find out further down the line...

\S/

 

[Therin of Andor]

Superman said:
It really is as easy as this to bring Shatner's Kirk back.

Easy, but many fans have said they don't want the timeline altered in permanent ways.

ENT's Temporal Cold War, and the return of the Borg, polarized fans, too.

And, even if they did find a way to bring Old Kirk back, the media would say that poor ol' JJ had caved, realizing that his Star Trek would flop without the participation of the iconic Mr Shatner.