Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

[freak]

I do agree about Janeways behavior in Equinox. I felt she was being irrational and not even hearing out her other crewmembers opinions. However, I thought she was a wonderful captain..not only because she was a female captain, but because she could stare down the Kazon without batting an eyelid!
And she helped her crew get through their seven year journey through the Delta Quadrant!

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're refuting math with interpretation of math by individuals who would lie or repeat lies they've been told.

Our memories of what a sensation Jeri Ryan was as Seven at that time should really suffice, but in addition, we have the cast of Voyager, including Kate Mulgrew; and innumerable news agencies, including The New Your Times, who you assume can't read the Nielson ratings and interpret them properly--you are the only one with the specialized knowledge to do this. Or is it that our memories, Kate Mulgrew, and the news agencies are lying to us (as you hint above) for some nefarious reason that only you and Mel Gibson know about?

Now you're talking about "feelings"?

Just because someone had a little heroin in 1996 (not you, it's a metaphor) it doesn't mean that everyone in 1996 was high as a kite. Your personal emotional experiences (now I'm talking about you) are not part of a telepathic gestalt that unifies the emotional spectrum of mankind. You are an island.

The lie is that they didn't say that the ratings went down after they went up. It's still the truth to say that the ratings went up. But it's more complete less skeevy truth to say that the ratings went up for a week and then went down and continued to go down as time went by.

Someone told Kate the ratings went up. Then no one told her they went down, or she chose not to listen to how the ratings were going down. You gotta remember how angry Kate was at this point in her life. She liked Jennifer Lien who was fired, and after that fact she made Jeri Ryan's life HELL like a mean girl for years (look it up) with a palpable systematic regime of passive aggressive abuse. If the ratings go down, her friends get fired. She had absolutely no interest in letting any one know that the ratings are low enough to fire anyone else.

You've never heard the phrase "controlling the narrative"?

The narrative was being controlled and publicists were being paid a lot of money to control it. That's the definition of their job. To force on you beliefs which are not completely true. If you're not (collective you, talking about mankind.) susceptible to coercion and adjustment then TV adverts might as well pack it in.

You were aware of Berman's 10 year contract?

From 1996 to 2005 Rick Berman was paid between 10 and 15 million (bonuses are variable.) per year to oversee all Star Trek, no matter how little or how much Star Trek was being made.

Voyager's season one ratings were comparable to TNG. It's season three ratings were comparable to a wet fart. Voyager was never in danger of being cancelled prematurely because Berman was still going to get paid even if there was no Star Trek and there's no frakking way that they were going to pay him to lolly about for the next 7 years with his thumb up his ass. What was most likely in danger come 1997/8 when they fired Lien and brought in Jeri was Berman's bonuses which had to be tied to Voyagers ratings, DS9's rating and the boxoffice on the shitty movies he was making.

(I suppose they could have cancelled Voyager, and given DS9 another 5 years, but they would have had to write new contracts for everyone which would have screwed with the budget. The point remains, why pay a man 10 million dollars a year to do nothing?)

Rick was still being paid this magnificent salary for the dribble over between the cancellation of Enterprise and when they confirmed that his contract was not going to get renewed for another ten years... But they could not allow him to begin any new projects they had no intention of following through on as he could screw them on good faith claiming that he should be allowed to finish making any series 6 they had allowed him to see into preproduction.

Whatever happened to Rick Berman?

Kate is just an actress. For a living this woman is paid to say things that are not true with conviction. Why is it so hard to believe that she could be mistaken that it was the right thing to do and the best thing ever to fire Jennifer Lien?

Jennifer would have killed the show.

If Jennifer stayed, the series would have been cancelled and Wang would have been living in a card board box inside a month.

Jennifer is evil.

Jennifer is evil and Jeri saved Star Trek Voyager from Jennifer's evil.

 

[Zameaze]

At least Janeway wasn't the one wearing a girdle. In fact she wouldn't wear the dreaded "Star Trek Bra" but that is another story.

But that's obvious--like I said, Janeway looked like a sack of potatoes next to Seven. No matter what she wore she wasn't going to be any competition for Seven, but couldn't she have at least tried? For the series? When Braga told Kate Mulgrew she needed to wear a push-up bra, maybe she should have listened.

Really? You've got to be kidding me.

Yes I was.

You're saying Janeway was awful because she didn't look sexy enough?

No, Janeway being an abominable captain had nothing to do with her looks. (Well, maybe her looks make her surly at times. Who knows.)

 

[R. Star]

You want to talk about Archer?

One of his first first contacts, he transmits coordinates to Earth to some bug eyed baddies before he's completely finished saying hello to prove that they are friendly and doe eyed with no aggressive intentions, which is when the bug eyes started shooting at him, with probably plans to sell most of his crew into slavery who they didn't think would blend well into Friday night's casserole.

"Sigh"

Oh! OH! OH!

What about Harriman?

First day on the job and he kills Kirk.

Um, which episode was that?

Silent Enemy I think.

 

[Lance]

Equinox is a bad case study. Kathy's character was famously all over the shop for seven seasons, but Equinox is really the only episode where she acts like that. So it's an easy sell for Voyager's critics to use that episode to paint her in a very bad light, but the truth is that she's fundamentally out-of-character in that two parter. Equinox isn't truly representative of who Captain Janeway really was most of the time.

I often wonder what was going through the writing team's minds when they wrote Equinox. In terms of inconsistency with the rest of the series it's up there with the dreaded Threshold. I still remember feeling "WTF?" when I first saw it because the character dynamic in that episode is just COMPLETELY off-kilter.

 

[Guy Gardener]

As far as part one is concerned, Mulgrew was being difficult renegotiating her contract for season 6, and they were leveraging her obstinacy claiming that John Savage would be more than happy to walk in and take over the show if she didn't bend over and take it from their lawyers.

(Oh, does that mean that Mulgrew didn't have to act in all the scenes where she's trying to kill Ransom, because she wanted to stick her foot up John's ass for trying to take her job?)

Think about how they ended season 5 with a flying space beasty going in to eat her face off.

They where creating an exit for Janeway to leave the series "seamlessly" by claiming that it's good that the Captain died now before her mania got any worse.

In the real world if they forced Mulgrew to walk, over a matter of 10 dollars, they didn't even need her presence for part two since any headless mannequin would do, to stand in for the great actress.

Hedging their bets.

 

[Zameaze]

Kate is just an actress. For a living this woman is paid to say things that are not true with conviction.

Someone told Kate the ratings went up. Then no one told her they went down....

All right, you are saying that Kate Mulgrew lied to us, or she was too stupid to know the ratings of her own show.

Myself, I think she is a savvy actress who knew exactly what was going on with her show. She gave Ryan credit for improving Voyager's ratings again in an interview given two years ago. I think this gave her time to figure out whether or not she was being lied to by this unnamed someone.

The narrative was being controlled and publicists were being paid a lot of money to control it.

OK, the press as a whole was being paid off to make us think that Voyager's ratings were going up. Frankly, this is sounding a tad paranoid to me.

Voyager was never in danger of being cancelled prematurely because Berman was still going to get paid even if there was no Star Trek.

You seem to be shooting down your own point with Berman. Voyager was in no danger of being cancelled, but yet Berman found it necessary to lie to us about Voyager's ratings.

The press in its entirety, Berman, and Kate Mulgrew are all lying to us and you are the only person that was able to figure this out! Shades of Gene Scott at his chalkboard.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But you agree that the ratings were going down?

The ratings were going down.

How were the ratings going down if some one was saving the show?

Maybe because no one saved the show?

You said earlier that you believe that Jeri brought in new fans only just slightly slower than Voyager was losing old fans. That the numbers Berman was getting from the Nielson Families was so precise that it could identify the departure of 2 million viewers only to be replaced by a different 1.5 million viewers?

Who on earth told you that?

Admit it.

No one did.

If the ratings got too low, some one is fired, if the ratings get still lower the show is cancelled. Enterprise was scoring less than 1 rating point when it was finally cancelled, Voyager started at 13, and consistently fell each week during season one till the final episode scored a 5.5, 6 years later he ratings hop scotching either side of 3 till the very end when there was a slight bump to 5.5.

Rating's = ad revenue.

Ratings is all that matters.

Artistic merit is not a factor.

Jake 2.0 was cancelled because a rerun of America's Next Top Model airing in it's timeslot during a skipweek got quadruple the ratings Jake 2.0 got.

(What's Jake 2.0?)

This is how I would know that Jeri "saved" the show...

The ratings tripled (which they did not) and everyone would have been asked to sign up for another 7 years on Voyager (which they were not) because the show was too profitable to junk (which it was not).

Most of the shows I like have shit ratings and they're cancelled.

I have funerals for old TV shows in my back yard where I bury old VHS cassette cases, in loving memory.

 

[Zameaze]

But you....etc, etc, etc.

I have answered your stream of consciousness posts again and again. No more until you give me SOMEONE who supports your fanciful position.

Among the sources I've given you to support my position is The New York Times, Kate Mulgrew, the star of the series, and Rick Burman, the executive producer.

What you've given me is your, and only your, fantastical interpretation of the ratings with which no one else agrees.

If you have not built your argument on thin air, prove it by giving me ONE newspaper, actor on the show, producer, or anyone except yourself that agrees with your view:

It's not clear that she brought new fans to the show.

You are the only one on planet Earth to say that Jeri Ryan did not boost Voyager's ratings.

 

[R. Star]

There's really not much evidence that Ryan increased ratings. With the exception of TNG every post TOS Trek show started high and progressively dipped.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I gave you links to the actual ratings 2 pages ago.

And any one giving you an interpretation of the ratings is either regurgitating those exact same numbers or a liar.

Any one that says that the ratings went consistently up, and stayed up is also a liar, because they went inconsistently down and by year 7 hovered near a point where cancellation was a talking point, even though it was still 3 times what Enterprise had when it was cancelled.

You actually have to have a link to something that verifies your evidence exists, like a link to a pdf or web archive, rather than me trusting your hazy memory on faith because I have no idea what you've done to your brain over the last 20 years.

According to Hanania, Joseph (February 7, 1999). "Signoff: Intergalactic Generation Gap," The New York Times, Voyager's weekly viewer ratings increased by more than 60% after the addition of Jeri Ryan's Seven to the crew.

(Shiiit. You just cut and pasted from Wikipedia.)

The full quote from that article is

When Jeri Ryan joined the cast of ''Star Trek: Voyager'' in its third season, in the fall of 1997, ratings soared 60 percent. They have since remained up, though not at that lofty level, said Rick Berman, an executive producer of the show, UPN's flagship series, shown in New York at 9 on Wednesday nights on WWOR, Channel 9.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/07/t...c-generation-gap.html?pagewanted=print&src=pm

And I followed my link to the actual ratings and I verified that Scorpion part II had increased by %63 from Worst Case Scenario, which by the way had aired 4 months earlier and hardly comparative, considering how someone's life and tastes can change in four months, that Jeri Ryan was one variable out of thousands that could have deviated trends between May and September 1997.

Anyone could also say that That Scorpion Part two had Half the ratings of the Pilot, Caretaker, from 4 years earlier. Caretaker got a 13, and Scorpion part II for a 6.5...

Is this really a moment to be celebrating when 1/2 your audience has wandered off?

 

[Zameaze]

I gave you links to the actual ratings 2 pages ago.

It's strange that no one in the field is able to interpret those ratings the way you did.

I knew that you couldn't give me one person involved in the series or a newspaper or magazine article from the time to back up you theory, because there aren't any. Sorry.

But for starting from a premise with no facts to back it up, you argued your proffered assumption well.

 

[Shane Houston]

OK, I'll start with an example from "Equinox." (I'd better save the subject of Tuvix for Guy Gardener or some one equally eloquent on the subject).

Janeway tortures Crewman Lessing to get intel on Ransom, against whom she has a personal vendetta. She confines Chakotay to his quarters for stopping her and for telling her that torture is wrong. She tells the aliens that if they'll stop attacking Voyager she'll deliver the Equinox to them. When Tuvok points out that will be certain death for the Equinox crew she threatens to confine him to quarters too.

Then I guess you're hatred for Janeway makes you give Captain Sisko a pass for his vendetta against Michael Eddington. He even orders his crew on the Defiant to fire biogenic weapons at the Marquis settlement, making the planet uninhabitable for 50 years. And threatens to do that to every Marquis planet in the TMZ until Eddington is captured.

Why is it Janeway, who's sole vendetta against Ransom is a legitimate one due to his murder of innocent life forms and attacking her ship, is scrutinized so much while Captain Sisko's vendetta is purely personal, get's ignored?

"Can't you see what's happening to you? You're going against everything you claim to believe in. And for what? To satisfy a personal vendetta?"

"You betrayed your uniform!"

"And you're betraying yours, right now! The sad part is that you don't even realize it. I feel sorry for you, captain. This obsession with me, look what it's cost you!"

"MAJOR, SHUT THAT THING OFF! COMMANDER WORF, PREPARE TO LAUNCH TORPEDOES!"

- Eddington and Sisko, on Sisko's decision to use biological weapons on a Maquis colony

Sisko also ordered the murder of Verad Dax, not unlike your example of Tuvix. I guess another man's worst captain is another man's hero.

 

[MacLeod]

I might be miss remembering, but Verad continued to live after the Dax symbiant had been removed and returned to Jadzia.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

I love Janeway, but I like Sisko as well.

I don't think there is any "worst" captain. They all made mistakes and yet they were all unique and loyal to Starfleet and their crews. They all got carried away at one point, broke the rules sometimes, made mistakes...that's just how it is.

 

[BennieGamali]

I love Janeway!! I LOVE JANEWAY!!!!!
Also. Janeway IS STRANDED in space. Rules and morals WILL change a little when you think you are doomed and that all your crew are doomed.
And Janeway drinks coffee. So you can all identify yourselves with her.

 

[eskyliz]

I might be miss remembering, but Verad continued to live after the Dax symbiant had been removed and returned to Jadzia.

Well then couldn't you argue that, Tuvix still lived but as two separate people. I don't know. I'm not an expert on Tuvix but that seems right.... TUVIX AND TRILLS ARE JUST SO CONFUSING.

 

[Zameaze]

OK, I'll start with an example from "Equinox." (I'd better save the subject of Tuvix for Guy Gardener or some one equally eloquent on the subject).

Janeway tortures Crewman Lessing to get intel on Ransom, against whom she has a personal vendetta. She confines Chakotay to his quarters for stopping her and for telling her that torture is wrong. She tells the aliens that if they'll stop attacking Voyager she'll deliver the Equinox to them. When Tuvok points out that will be certain death for the Equinox crew she threatens to confine him to quarters too.

Then I guess you're hatred for Janeway makes you give Captain Sisko a pass for his vendetta against Michael Eddington.

All things considered, I do think that Janeway is a worse captain than Sisko.

I also think that Kate Mulgrew is a much better actor than Avery Brooks.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

OK, I'll start with an example from "Equinox." (I'd better save the subject of Tuvix for Guy Gardener or some one equally eloquent on the subject).

Janeway tortures Crewman Lessing to get intel on Ransom, against whom she has a personal vendetta. She confines Chakotay to his quarters for stopping her and for telling her that torture is wrong. She tells the aliens that if they'll stop attacking Voyager she'll deliver the Equinox to them. When Tuvok points out that will be certain death for the Equinox crew she threatens to confine him to quarters too.

Then I guess you're hatred for Janeway makes you give Captain Sisko a pass for his vendetta against Michael Eddington.

All things considered, I do think that Janeway is a worse captain than Sisko.

I also think that Kate Mulgrew is a much better actor than Avery Brooks.

As for who was the better captain...how can you truly compare the two...when they were both commanding in MUCH different circumstances. It's almost like apples and oranges. Sisko had back-up from Starfleet and Bajor (although he was also helping to protect Bajor, he also had help from Bajorans such as Kira) and the Klingons. But he also had extra responsibilities because he was the Emissary and a father. Janeway did NOT have support from Starfleet for most of the show since they were lost in space. We never got to see Sisko in that kind of situation. We don't really know how he would have reacted.

As for acting, I prefer Kate Mulgrew also, however I think Avery Brook is also a fine actor.

 

[Zameaze]

Well then couldn't you argue that, Tuvix still lived but as two separate people.

Tuvix didn't think so. He argued that he had rights and that he didn't want to die.