Why isn't Star Trek a big movie franchise?

[Vger23]

The answer to this is rather obvious:

Star Trek has never had "mass appeal," ever. At the peak of it's popularity Star Trek: Generations was released, and that did somewhere south of $80M. I'd argue the only reason that TMP did so well was that there was a 10 year gulf where the build-up was so intense and you had not only hungry fans but also curious non-fans who wanted to see what it was all about. It was also in the wake of the Star Wars craze.

It's a niche property. It isn't terribly accessible. The fanbase (sorry...I mean no offense) is, for the most part, terribly unapproachable and not entirely pleasant to each other or (especially) anything or anyone new. Star Trek was the grandfather of the negative nerd stigma.

If anything the Kelvin films have broken that slightly and have been more successful than expected based on what I just said. But, you're not going to get anything better than those movies at this point. Those are as "Star Trekkie" as they can be without totally losing the ability to draw on a general audience. They did a great job walking the line of Trekkie and mass-appeal with the new films...and they still don't have the appeal that the comic book movies* have.

(*side note: I think it's an unfortunate fact, since I absolutely HATE superhero movies and comic book crap. I know I'm in a minority here...but it's just SO OLD and lame at this point, I can barely think straight)

 

[TRON JA307020]

The answer to this is rather obvious:

Star Trek has never had "mass appeal," ever. At the peak of it's popularity Star Trek: Generations was released, and that did somewhere south of $80M. I'd argue the only reason that TMP did so well was that there was a 10 year gulf where the build-up was so intense and you had not only hungry fans but also curious non-fans who wanted to see what it was all about. It was also in the wake of the Star Wars craze.

It's a niche property. It isn't terribly accessible. The fanbase (sorry...I mean no offense) is, for the most part, terribly unapproachable and not entirely pleasant to each other or (especially) anything or anyone new. Star Trek was the grandfather of the negative nerd stigma.

If anything the Kelvin films have broken that slightly and have been more successful than expected based on what I just said. But, you're not going to get anything better than those movies at this point. Those are as "Star Trekkie" as they can be without totally losing the ability to draw on a general audience. They did a great job walking the line of Trekkie and mass-appeal with the new films...and they still don't have the appeal that the comic book movies* have.

(*side note: I think it's an unfortunate fact, since I absolutely HATE superhero movies and comic book crap. I know I'm in a minority here...but it's just SO OLD and lame at this point, I can barely think straight)

The thing is when ST09 was released it was touted as bringing in the mass audiences and not just trekkers. The stigma of Trek being only for Trekkers/Trekkies only was supposedly gone because of the way Abrams rebooted it in a easier less talky more action style ala Star Wars. STB broke even this year on a 185,000,000 budget and Rogue One on a 200,000,000 budget has taken in twice what STB did in its run and its not even done yet. I think Trek is back to being a very niche market. Maybe it will always be that way. Trek is going back to TV(Well CBS access anyway) so we will see if it that will bring its appeal back up. Also with a lower budget most likely for the 4th film we may get some better writing for the 4th film and less overdone special effects. So Trek may find its path in the next couple years.

 

[fireproof78]

I think another problem with the NuTrek not being as popular as the bigger franchises is that Abrams was a Star Wars fan and tried to make NuTrek in that vein. Now that SW is back it makes NuTrek pale in comparison. Basically NuTrek is a poor mans SW. Thats just my humble opinion of course.

Which is why so many people enjoyed the film?

I don't think there is a correlation between the two. I think Abrams made the film that he wanted based upon studio mandate to increase Trek's market share. But, Abrams will be disparaged for years because of the "Star Wars-ification of Star Trek."

 

[TRON JA307020]

Which is why so many people enjoyed the film?

I don't think there is a correlation between the two. I think Abrams made the film that he wanted based upon studio mandate to increase Trek's market share. But, Abrams will be disparaged for years because of the "Star Wars-ification of Star Trek."

The first film was a success and the 2nd was a lesser success and now the third(Abrams had no input except that it was based on his world building) was not a success. It didn't hold up to a Star Wars type of all around love they had hoped to generate. Abrams did admit that he wasn't a Star Trek fan before he made the movie and was really a Star Wars fan. He even added a love triangle of Kirk, Spock and Uhura which was reminiscent of the Han, Luke and Leia triangle before we found out that Leia and Luke were siblings. So I really think he was channeling SW while making his ST flicks.

 

[fireproof78]

The first film was a success and the 2nd was a lesser success and now the third(Abrams had no input except that it was based on his world building) was not a success. It didn't hold up to a Star Wars type of all around love they had hoped to generate. Abrams did admit that he wasn't a Star Trek fan before he made the movie and was really a Star Wars fan. He even added a love triangle of Kirk, Spock and Uhura which was reminiscent of the Han, Luke and Leia triangle before we found out that Leia and Luke were siblings. So I really think he was channeling SW while making his ST flicks.

Possibly. But, being a non-fan also led to success with Nicholas Meyer, so that really shouldn't be held against Abrams.

Regardless, I think 09 holds up just fine as film all by itself, and if Star Wars held lead to its success, I'm not going to complain about it. But, I don't think Abrams' fan preferences are as important as the Internet has made them out to be.

 

[BillJ]

But, being a non-fan also led to success with Nicholas Meyer, so that really shouldn't be held against Abrams.

And... Rick Berman.

 

[Yanks]

Why isn't Star Trek a big movie franchise? Not only is Star Wars a bigger success in at the box office, but movies based on obscure comic book characters like Ant Man and Dr. Strange have done better then Beyond. Even Suicide Squad did better then Beyond and that movie was based on an obscure property and was garbage.

I think it is a "big" movie franchise, but it cant hang with SW and Marvel because Star Trek doesn't play to the "kids" market.

Every kid on the planet wants a light-saber and a Chewbacca in their bedroom.

The same reason Disney movies bring in so much.

Kids.

Star Wars is the simplest version of good v evil in cinema. There's really nothing to it. TFA was nothing more than A New Hope rewrite with better visuals and look at the numbers it brought in,

I think trek does just fine for the audience it plays to.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I think it is a "big" movie franchise, but it cant hang with SW and Marvel because Star Trek doesn't play to the "kids" market.

Every kid on the planet wants a light-saber and a Chewbacca in their bedroom.

The same reason Disney movies bring in so much.

Kids.

Star Wars is the simplest version of good v evil in cinema. There's really nothing to it. TFA was nothing more than A New Hope rewrite with better visuals and look at the numbers it brought in,

I think trek does just fine for the audience it plays to.

Right it plays to its audience but Abrams attempted to change that in 09' and it has basically reverted back to a niche market. So its trek to a big movie franchise ala Star Wars didn't happen. I think they should go back to old trek and see what happens. With Discovery taking place in Prime with characters that are not all Starfleet cadets we may see a bit more thought provoking Trek again. Time will tell.

 

[Vger23]

Right it plays to its audience but Abrams attempted to change that in 09' and it has basically reverted back to a niche market. So its trek to a big movie franchise ala Star Wars didn't happen. I think they should go back to old trek and see what happens. With Discovery taking place in Prime with characters that are not all Starfleet cadets we may see a bit more thought provoking Trek again. Time will tell.

I always find it amusing when people say "Abrams did this" or "Abrams wanted that" when, in reality, Paramount was the driving force behind the marketing and philosophy of what the new films should be. Abrams was simply the man they hired to carry out that vision.

It's been said more times than anyone wants to hear...but Star Trek is a business. If it's not making a profit, it can't be continued.

Also- not sure what films you watched...but the only "cadets" in any of the Kelvin films were Kirk (who was older for a cadet), Uhura and McCoy (who also was older for a cadet). After that, nobody was a cadet any longer, and I don't think a character's age or educational status has any bearing on whether something is "thought provoking" or not.

 

[KelisThePoet]

Possibly. But, being a non-fan also led to success with Nicholas Meyer, so that really shouldn't be held against Abrams.

And... Rick Berman.

Meyer, Berman, Abrams. Love them or hate them or hate some of them, but the three biggest world builders in Trek since Roddenberry were all non-fans. That ought to put to rest this silly idea that creative folks have to be Trek fanatics without other preferences to successfully work in the franchise.

I always find it amusing when people say "Abrams did this" or "Abrams wanted that" when, in reality, Paramount was the driving force behind the marketing and philosophy of what the new films should be. Abrams was simply the man they hired to carry out that vision.

On a different but related note, Abrams did not create the Kelvinverse or its stories himself, at the behest of Paramount or otherwise. Orci and Kurtzman were the writers, and there were countless other creative folks whose influence overlapped that of the director. Fans like to attach extreme veneration or hatred (two sides of the same coin) to creative individuals like Roddenberry and Abrams, but the actual creative process behind a movie or television program is much more messy and complicated.

Abrams did admit that he wasn't a Star Trek fan before he made the movie and was really a Star Wars fan. He even added a love triangle of Kirk, Spock and Uhura which was reminiscent of the Han, Luke and Leia triangle before we found out that Leia and Luke were siblings. So I really think he was channeling SW while making his ST flicks.

This is exactly the kind of questionable evidence I'm talking about for linking Kelvinverse Star Trek to Abrams to Star Wars. A love triangle? You might as well say Abrams was channeling Arthur-Guenevere-Lancelot for how old and common that plot device is--except wait, there is no love triangle in Star Trek (2009), anyway. Spock has a girlfriend who Kirk flirts with a few times in the movie because Kelvinverse Kirk (unlike Shatner's Kirk, but like the myth of Shatner's Kirk) flirts with everyone. But if you squint real hard, you can see Star Wars in Abrams' Star Trek. It's like a Magic Eye picture. Not.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I always find it amusing when people say "Abrams did this" or "Abrams wanted that" when, in reality, Paramount was the driving force behind the marketing and philosophy of what the new films should be. Abrams was simply the man they hired to carry out that vision.

It's been said more times than anyone wants to hear...but Star Trek is a business. If it's not making a profit, it can't be continued.

Also- not sure what films you watched...but the only "cadets" in any of the Kelvin films were Kirk (who was older for a cadet), Uhura and McCoy (who also was older for a cadet). After that, nobody was a cadet any longer, and I don't think a character's age or educational status has any bearing on whether something is "thought provoking" or not.

That first movie it seemed to me like they were a bunch of college kids playing with shiny computers.

That's just the point Star Trek is a business and should be making money. The first movie made money, the second made less and the third broke even. So far the business model for NuTrek is starting to falter. The 4th film needs to get them away from anything Starfleet. Lets see the crew out there on their own exploring. The Yorktown just gave the crew another excuse to crash a starship into a federation and civilian populated area. Lets see something different next time.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ I'm STILL convinced that the Trek franchise would benefit most from some sort of exotic "Indiana Jones" style adventure. As many people complained about the opening sequence in "Darkness," it's still one of the more memorable scenes in the movie, along with the shooutout on Kronos and the ship-to-ship spacejump.

You could build a movie around six or seven sequences like that, as long as you keep the dialog tight and the acting solid. All you need is a sufficiently Trekian McGuffin -- The Yonada Archive, or the Homeworld of the Preservers, or even the Guardian of Forever.

 

[KelisThePoet]

The fanbase (sorry...I mean no offense) is, for the most part, terribly unapproachable and not entirely pleasant to each other or (especially) anything or anyone new. Star Trek was the grandfather of the negative nerd stigma.

I'm not sure about this one. It certainly seems true to me as a Star Trek fan first and foremost who interacts with other Star Trek fans first and foremost. But the thing is, there was a time when I was something of a Star Wars fan, and I remember how savage some of those people could be toward the prequels and George Lucas and anyone who disagreed with them. And I hear anecdotes from my sister, a huge Harry Potter fan, about over-the-top negative reactions to The Cursed Child. And anecdotes from my cousin, a big Doctor Who fan, about other fans of that property frothing at the mouth over Steven Moffat. I think this kind of bad behavior is common to fanbases and exacerbated by the internet.

 

[TRON JA307020]

^ I'm STILL convinced that the Trek franchise would benefit most from some sort of exotic "Indiana Jones" style adventure. As many people complained about the opening sequence in "Darkness," it's still one of the more memorable scenes in the movie, along with the shooutout on Kronos and the ship-to-ship spacejump.

You could build a movie around six or seven sequences like that, as long as you keep the dialog tight and the acting solid. All you need is a sufficiently Trekian McGuffin -- The Yonada Archive, or the Homeworld of the Preservers, or even the Guardian of Forever.

True. I do like the idea of a Guardian of Forever style story for the next movie. I have seen enough crash and burn and would honestly like to see some good dialogue and acting.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

True. I do like the idea of a Guardian of Forever style story for the next movie. I have seen enough crash and burn and would honestly like to see some good dialogue and acting.

I couldn't agree more, but knowing studio execs there are innumerable more chances of an Guardians of the Galaxy style movie than a Guardian of Forever style story for the sequel(s). Dancing baby Keenser will be all the rage!

 

[Khan 2.0]

^ I'm STILL convinced that the Trek franchise would benefit most from some sort of exotic "Indiana Jones" style adventure.

Wasn't that Star Trek V?

You could build a movie around six or seven sequences like that, as long as you keep the dialog tight and the acting solid. All you need is a sufficiently Trekian McGuffin -- The Yonada Archive, or the Homeworld of the Preservers, or even the Guardian of Forever.

I think that was something like Orcis plan for Trek3

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I couldn't agree more, but knowing studio execs there are innumerable more chances of an Guardians of the Galaxy style movie than a Guardian of Forever style story for the sequel(s). Dancing baby Keenser will be all the rage!

Not so much if the Guardian of Forever is just a McGuffin the crew has to find before a competing Klingon or Romulan ship gets there.

Maybe add a twist ending: after spending the entire movie battling hurricanes, jumping rooftop to rooftop in ancient mugato-infested ruins, battling thresher maws on some god-forsaken desert planet and trading photon torpedoes with a Romulan battlecruiser, the Romulans still beat the Enterprise to the gate and Kirk has to go back in time to try and stop them. He arrives in the 1960s in a crowd, sees the Romulan commander setting up to attack... and realizes her target is JFK.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Not so much if the Guardian of Forever is just a McGuffin the crew has to find before a competing Klingon or Romulan ship gets there.

Maybe add a twist ending: after spending the entire movie battling hurricanes, jumping rooftop to rooftop in ancient mugato-infested ruins, battling thresher maws on some god-forsaken desert planet and trading photon torpedoes with a Romulan battlecruiser, the Romulans still beat the Enterprise to the gate and Kirk has to go back in time to try and stop them. He arrives in the 1960s in a crowd, sees the Romulan commander setting up to attack... and realizes her target is JFK.

Sweet. How about a remake of The Doomsday Machine? One of the best episodes of TOS. Of course you have to have another Starship out there with a mad captain again. Dang.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Wasn't that Star Trek V?

In fairness, going by the original script, TFF would have been a kickass movie with a better budget and a better director. There was nothing actually wrong with the story, it was the EXECUTION where it fell flat on its face.

I think that was something like Orcis plan for Trek3

I had heard Orci was planning to recycle some obscure TOS villain like Trelaine or something.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Sweet. How about a remake of The Doomsday Machine? One of the best episodes of TOS. Of course you have to have another Starship out there with a mad captain again. Dang.

That could also be fun, but even if you ditch the "mad captain" plot device... you've got a movie about a machine that EATS FUCKING PLANETS. I mean, dude, there's your first half right there!

Come to think of it, the old Star Trek scroller on the original Game Boy had that same basic plot: the planet killer was rampaging through the galaxy and you had to gather up pieces of some ancient weapon to be able to stop it. I never did finish that game; kept getting eaten by the cloud creature on level 2.