I don't believe that's actually true for most militaries.
And in Starfleet it's a personal choice. Permission from a superior is not sought or asked for.
I don't know that I can take the rest of your posts seriously after this...
Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?
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I'll give you half-points on that one, the Starfleet troops in Nor the Battle to the Strong and The Siege of AR-558 certainly have body armour and there are references to troop transports. However, particularly given that they use Starfleet/naval ranks rather than the military ranks associated with infantry I would suggest that they are actually Starfleet Security personnel for the most part (cf USN SEALs, USAF Security Forces, USCG DOG) rather than dedicated infantry or marines.
Yeah it was treated as an after-thought, "hmm, if we dismantle our entire mili... defense force we would be vulnerable to dangerous powers trying to invade us."
Isn't that a strange after-thought?
In insurrection they were complaining that they had to cut an archaeological expedition short in order to mediate some dispute. the problem is, Insurrection may have taken place during the Dominion war. there are some lines from the movie that suggest it, plus Worf, in Starfleet uniform is there, so it is a strong pointer to it being during the war.
If it is, it's more of a criticism, as you're going to ask, "what the hell is the flagship doing going on an archaeological expedition during the Dominion war?
The feeling Picard gave off in Peak Performance was that he or 24th century people held the idea of a military in disdain. They just don't like the idea of a military, because the military is "bad".
The criticism from some people comes from the reality that you have to have some type of military in order to protect from aggressive outside powers.
I think the OP is really asking, is Starfleet and 24th century humans in denial?
I don't think the guys "Siege" are ground troops, but in the other episode they are organized into "platoons" and "squads." So we have dedicated infantry units that spend "thousands of hours" training for combat. They wear specialized uniforms with body armor, and travel in dedicated troop transports. Their ranks aren't mentioned except for the one guy saying "my CO," but even if they use Naval ranks, it would be fitting as they belong to Starfleet. Navy Seals and Seabees use Naval ranks also, but it's possible these Starfleet grunts don't.
Either way, a half a point? Injustice! This all very specifically contradicts the post I replied to.
Because those that opine that Starfleet is not a full fledged military, speak in way that indicates they have intimate knowledge of military culture. So yes, this thread, and others of the same topic.
The army/marines/air force have similar rank titles without being the same service. The infantry seen could have use the same rank titles as Starfleet, without being the same service as Starfleet.
These episodes seem like a disconnect somehow. While the officers on AR-558 could just be people beamed down from a starship to get the array working, and then stuck there, those in Nor the Battle to the Strong just seem to be something different. Like they aren't Starfleet at all. Like a writer was trying to add something in that didn't fit, but the story was enough to sell it to the producers.
My feeling is that they were not Starfleet, but the writers imaginations didn't allow them to come up with something different when needed. Several older FASA era fans were hoping these were the long denied Starfleet Marines, which I would take as the actual military for the Federation. I could easily see Starfleet being drafted into the Marine's organizational charts for war efforts, and then released back to their own organization following the end of the conflict. The upper structures being similar enough on purpose so that the transitions don't cause too many headaches. Unlike when Captain Jellico was working of getting USS Enterprise ready for war when the mission was to maintain the peace, for the Dominion and Klingon, at times of declared warfare, I can see the shift being plausible and accepted by Starfleet personnel (with some melancholy for their usual work of course).
Imagine Admiral Ross as being a Starfleet Marine Admiral, and when the war breaks out, the local Starfleet (non-military) admirals and captains are assigned to his command and restructured for combat duties as part of the draft due to war. Post-war, Admiral Ross goes back to being a Starfleet Marine admiral, and the Starfleet (non-military) admirals and captains go back to their regular duties as bast they can given the aftermath of the Dominion War. Deep Space Nine goes back to being a Bajorian space station keeping tabs on the wormhole for trade and diplomatic measures in the Gamma Quadrant. Exploration will need to be renegotiated with the locals before Starfleet goes back out there, possibly leading to an effort to integrate the Quantum Slipstream Drive technology after USS Voyager returns home only a handful of years after the end of the war.
My feeling is the troops on AR-559 are Starfleet Corps of Engineers with Force Protection elements from Starfleet Security in the guard role.
As Starfleet is the permanent organisation, whereas Ground Forces (over and above Starfleet Security) if they exist are wartime reserves then it makes sense that the former would remain senior, but with a Ground Forces/Reserves General on the "Command Council" or "Joint Chiefs", with a GF officer of similar rank as an advisor to each fleet commander (ie VADM Ross would actually have two adjutants - Sisko as his Fleet Captain (space operations) and a Major General to Colonel as his Division/Brigade Commander (ground operations) - rather than just Sisko.
I would also point to Starfleet Security being the "troops" that enforced martial law on Earth in Homefront and Paradise Lost boosts the "SSEC is it except during times of war" argument.
In what military do they salute indoors? Certainly not any western militaries, and obviously not the U.S. Military.
Nor the Battle... takes place prior to the Dominion War. Perhaps O'Brien was part of such a unit when he was a "soldier."
Unless there was some great manpower shortage, why would Starfleet personnel be "drafted" into grunts? Does the Army steal people from the Navy and stick them through bootcamp, give them a rifle and send them into battle?
Nor the Battle takes place during the Klingon War that lasted until just after the Cardassians allied with the Dominion. It sometimes gets rolled up with the Dominion War due to it being caused more or less by the Founders or because of the Founders.
This was also during the lead up to the Dominion War that the Borg attacked Earth for the second time, hence the huge numbers of starships ready to defend the place. This is also the time period when the uniforms were changed to the overall gray shoulders, possibly marking the change that put Starfleet under another military structure for the inevitable conflict.
This was also during the lead up to the Dominion War that the Borg attacked Earth for the second time, hence the huge numbers of starships ready to defend the place. This is also the time period when the uniforms were changed to the overall gray shoulders, possibly marking the change that put Starfleet under another military structure for the inevitable conflict.
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Um... because there was some great manpower shortage?
The problem with them being security is that their outfits utilize all three department colours, not just gold.
The fact that they aren't using a fourth color (ala the strike team in TFF (specfically deferent from Security) which presumably would have been used during Operation Retrieve also) backs up them being regular Starfleet (red being squad leaders, blue probably medics?) rather than Ground Forces.
You're wrong. Saluting indoors and aboard ships is restricted to things like award ceremonies and a very few other occurrences.
The pilot of a aircraft about to catapulted off a aircraft carrier will salute the catapult officer as part of a hand signal that the pilot and aircraft are ready to go.
But they are seen to come to the position of attention.
Why would civilians do this?
Also there the extra component of the junior officers being the senior officers direct subordinate today.
Starfleet policy might be different to reflect that people live on starships for multiple years. Still Dr. Crusher wouldn't date Nurse Ogawa.
In the US military - there are others. The British Army salute indoors, with some units saluting indoors without headress.
Police and fire both do this and are civilian.
It is subjective, and I don't have a problem if someone views Starfleet as a military. As a USAF veteran, I don't. For me—and to answer the OP question—it comes down to primary purpose. Of course Starfleet is structured like a military, because that organizational structure is effective in getting masses of people to work toward achieving goals, but Starfleet's secondary purpose is defense. It's primary goal is furthering knowledge, not just martial knowledge, but all knowledge.
The purpose of a military is to kill and destroy. Now, can you get a engineering degree while killing and destroying? Of course. But that doesn't make the military's purpose to educate you. It just means you are opting to get an education while killing and destroying.
The Mirror Starfleet? That's a military.
The purpose of a military is to kill and destroy. Now, can you get a engineering degree while killing and destroying? Of course. But that doesn't make the military's purpose to educate you. It just means you are opting to get an education while killing and destroying.
The Mirror Starfleet? That's a military.
I don't know if four years as a US Navy enlisted sailor and long study of US and British naval history qualifies, but... My definition of "military organization" is simple: An organized national fighting force. Whatever else it does, Starfleet qualifies. Plus every type of mission its ships are assigned was also performed by the British Royal Navy or US Navy in the 19th century. I also consider those navies to be military organizations.
Things evolve. Hand saluting grew out of the etiquette of head covering and un-covering, like removing the hat indoors, removing it when introduced to a woman etc. Hand saluting was originally doffing or lifting the cap to a superior. Some services (USN, USMC, RN) don't salute uncovered. Some do. Some salute indoors, some don't. But if wearing headgear has almost completely disappeared in Trek's day, maybe saluting has gone the same way. Or, maybe the social differences between superior and subordinate have been de-emphasized that standing to attention is considered a sufficient sign of respect. But as a mark of what's military and what's non-military, I don't think hand saluting is strong evidence either way.
BTW, there may be some kind of saluting in TOS: The security honor guard in "Journey to Babel" seem to be at some kind of present arms with their phaser 2's.
Just as a curiosity, USN officers saluting c. 1890 (note one is using his left hand):
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Really, Police and Firefighters come to attention when their police captain/ fire captain walks through an area, the way the crewman did for Picard in the beginning of the TNG pilot?
Or only in special ceremonial situations, like funerals and public speeches?
Not in TNG, for the most part. Jellico was the only one who ever really enforced that rule, and Riker at the beginning of Encounter at Farpoint and never again afterwards. TOS and TMP were sticklers for this, though.
As an attempt to emulate martial discipline. PMCs and police departments sometimes do this while their officers/employees are on duty.
But Tomlinson dated -- and eventually married -- Martine.
So for sure, the working definition we have of Starfleet covers all bases.
Starfleet is not a military organization, it is a scientific research and diplomatic body. Although SOME of its duties include military missions, the purpose of the Enterprise -- as with ALL Starfleet vessels -- is to expand the body of Federation knowledge.
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