Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[Crazy Eddie]

"Military" is an obsolete concept in Star Trek?!

Yes. Just like "monarchy" is an obsolete concept in the 21st century.

And yet...
http://www.robinsonlibrary.com/history/asia/arabian/history/graphics/saud.jpg

That might be true if there were no wars, no threats. It's every bit as relevant as any time.

Again, just like monarchy. Apparently there will always be kings, princes and political power based on lineage, but there are also those who believe -- and can make a pretty good case for it -- that monarchy is not the ideal form of government.

Much the way TNG Earth makes the case that the military is not the ideal defender of peace.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

I feel like this "here's a quote that proves Starfleet is a military" vs "here's a quote that proves Starfleet isn't a military" is kind of wasted energy but still enlightening (to me). I think I've come to the conclusion that Starfleet is and isn't a military -- it is or isn't depending on the perspective of the writer of a given episode, the needs of the story, or the viewer's perception of what a military is (which seems to be a moving target).

 

[BillJ]

Much the way TNG Earth makes the case that the military is not the ideal defender of peace.

Then why do they so openly respect military traditions? If the military is such an obsolete thing, it seems like they would dispatch with traditions associated with it...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But they've never de-emphasized the military aspects.

Yes they have. To be sure:
- Junior officers do not salute their superiors
- Fraternization with junior officers is no longer forbidden
- Disobeying direct orders is no longer an automatically jailable offense (sometimes they even promote you for that)
- The inclusion of civilians and/or families on board starships
- The lack of advanced weapons training for officers not specifically assigned to security
- The lack of body armor, heavy weapons, or specialized combat vehicles for ground deployment
- The dual-purpose nature of just about everything Starfleet makes (your tricorder can be used as an ECM pod, your phaser can be used as a forcefield generator, your main deflector dish can be used to cause the entire population of Delta IV to achieve simultaneous orgasm).
- ETA: "desertion" is evidently not even a thing anymore, since Starfleet officers are seen to desert their posts something like four times a season without being prosecuted for it; I don't believe modern militaries take an officer going AWOL so lightly.

And at every turn, they emphasize the fleet's scientific and engineering readiness, which only makes sense, because their scientific acumen is usually ALOT more useful than their combat skills (such as they are), particularly when dealing with a deadly but non-military threat.

Beyond saying they aren't the "military" they pretty much act like the military.

They pretty much act like a bunch of first responders who also happen to be armed with guns and PhDs.

Which is why the description remains accurate:
Starfleet is not a military organization, it is a scientific research and diplomatic body. Although some of its duties include military missions, the purpose of the Enterprise -- as with ALL Starfleet vessels -- is to expand the body of human knowledge.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'll keep my current sensibilities. Thanks.

Sure. Just as long as you recognize that it is YOUR sensibilities that you are arguing from, and you are trying to apply your on moral and ideological judgements to a society (albeit a fictional one) that does not share them.

In this sense, calling Starfleet "the Federation's military" is like calling Donald Trump "the King of America." The Federation doesn't believe in militaries, probably for a similar reason that the United States doesn't believe in monarchy. Of course, sometimes extraordinary things happen; Ivanka Trump suddenly acting as a state official for no reason definitely has a "monarchist" flavor to it much the way Starfleet's actions before and during the Dominion War were remarkably militaristic.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Then why do they so openly respect military traditions?

Because their parent organization -- Earth Starfleet -- included a large number of former military officers who brought those traditions with them. "Red alert" for example appears to be the brain child of a single officer who hails from a Royal Navy background, and it's likely that most of the combat and self defense training undertaken by security officers were originally codified by MACOs.

FYI, this is the same reason many police departments honor military traditions despite the fact that none of them were EVER part of the military.

If the military is such an obsolete thing, it seems like they would dispatch with traditions associated with it...

Monarchy is an obsolete thing, but the United Kingdom -- which is a democracy -- still has a queen.

 

[psCargile]

Simple question: would you join Starfleet to defend the Federation, or explore space? Would it be your professional goal to be a soldier, or a scientist?

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Simple question: would you join Starfleet to defend the Federation, or explore space? Would it be your professional goal to be a soldier, or a scientist?

Speaking personally? I'd join to explore space. I think xenobiology would be my scene.

 

[BillJ]

Simple question: would you join Starfleet to defend the Federation, or explore space? Would it be your professional goal to be a soldier, or a scientist?

But you can do that in the modern military as well. The Navy chased my son around for two years for their nuclear engineering program.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

But you can do that in the modern military as well. The Navy chased my son around for two years for their nuclear engineering program.

I think the difference (hoo boy!) is that in Starfleet, exploring space and advancing science are ends in themselves, whereas in the modern American military, scientific advances are generally only explored where it advances or improves defense-focused objectives.

 

[BillJ]

I think the difference (hoo boy!) is that in Starfleet, exploring space and advancing science are ends in themselves...

Are they really though? It is advantageous for the Federation and Starfleet to know what lies beyond their borders. It would definitely be of benefit for defending your territory.

Sure M-5 was going to be used for exploring, but it also had practical military applications and the war games were shown to be every bit as important as its ability to navigate and select landing party members.

 

[Nyotarules]

the purpose of the Enterprise -- as with ALL Starfleet vessels -- is to expand the body of human knowledge.

Tell that to the USS Intrepid

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Are they really though? It is advantageous for the Federation and Starfleet to know what lies beyond their borders. It would definitely be of benefit for defending your territory.

Sure M-5 was going to be used for exploring, but it also had practical military applications and the war games were shown to be every bit as important as its ability to navigate and select landing party members.

The military applications may be relevant, but not primary, and I think that's the crux of the issue. Certainly Starfleet expends resources advancing science and technology for defense purposes (see: the Defiant, phasers, etc) but I'd argue that most of what Starfleet sciences occupies itself with isn't defense-focused.

 

[BillJ]

Certainly Starfleet expends resources advancing science and technology for defense purposes (see: the Defiant) but I'd argue that most of what Starfleet sciences occupies itself with isn't defense-focused.

We really don't know that though. We're taking a mighty leap on assuming what Starfleet scientists spend their time on.

Starfleet was keen on copying Data's positronic matrix to create an expendable crew member. But it wouldn't be hard to see a military making a push for indestructable officers that they can send into dangerous situations.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Are they really though?

Yes.

 

[psCargile]

Would appear to me that more civilians view Starfleet as a military organization than current servicemen or veterans do.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

We really don't know that though. We're taking a mighty leap on assuming what Starfleet scientists spend their time on.

It's not much of a leap. We know they spend their leisure time on things like holodeck simulations, stage performances, concerts, yoga classes, and shipboard romance. Worf is the only officer on the Enterprise who seems to use the holodeck for actual combat training, and then mainly to practice his bat'leth skills (which is interesting, because he never actually uses the bat'leth while on duty).

So that leaves on-duty time, and that is undeniably mainly used for scientific research and exploration.

And once again, there's the wargames in "Peak Performance" where the entire emphasis on the contest turned out to be less about combat tactics and weaponry than it was about scientific and engineering skills. "Peak Performance" is the episode that tells us Starfleet is not a military organization, but more than that, it's the episode that shows us WHY: Starfleet prides itself on its ability to use science to solve all of its problems, and they are very VERY good at it. Even when their enemies have every possible tactical advantage (as the Enterprise did over Hathaway and the Ferengi did over Enterprise) Starfleet can still defeat and humiliate its opponents with science.

Starfleet was keen on copying Data's positronic matrix to create an expendable crew member. But it wouldn't be hard to see a military making a push for indestructable officers that they can send into dangerous situations.

But "indestructible officers they can send into dangerous situations" isn't all that hard to do. Robotic technology of a century earlier would have sufficed for that (and maybe DID suffice, depending on how you interpret the "robocop" of STXI). But they didn't want Data for an expendable officer, they wanted Data for a mass producable high-quality field officer.

The military applications of an expendable battle droid are well documented and need no support. But that's not what Starfleet wanted with Data.

 

[Prax]

Firefighter is to protect the community"
- Chandler Fire Department

There are lots of ways to protect people. War is not always -- or even usually -- the most effective way. In fact, in the history of Star Trek you can actually make the case that military solutions turn out to be inapplicable to 90% of their problems, so it would make sense for them to de-emphasize the militaristic role of Starfleet and let them focus on things that DO work.

Does a firefighter's context of "protection" include neutralizing foreign

Would appear to me that more civilians view Starfleet as a military organization than current servicemen or veterans do.

What would lead you to that conclusion? Certainly not this thread as the few people who have admitted their background seem to be in the "is a military" camp.

 

[Prax]

Junior officers do not salute their superiors

How do you know this? Despite what is often seen from Hollywood, in the real military, you don't salute indoors. You also don't salute overseas. You only salute in garrison or during ceremony.

- Fraternization with junior officers is no longer forbidden

How do you know that? Fraternization policies are in large part at the CO's discretion, just like Starfleet....AND the civilian world.

- Disobeying direct orders is no longer an automatically jailable offense (sometimes they even promote you for that)

Disobeying direct orders is a jailable offense in Starfleet, and has even happened. Disobeying direct orders in the real world can result in punitive action, administrative action, and court martial.

- The inclusion of civilians and/or families on board starships

This was presented as unique(and new) to the Enterprise D, and was quickly abandoned. The idea behind it was that the Enterprise D would go out for years at a time. It ended up returning home more often than Kirk.

- The lack of advanced weapons training for officers not specifically assigned to security

How do you know this? All starfleet officers receive tactical and weapons training. In the real world military, Soldier, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines received advanced training in whatever their job is. If a Soldier is a surveyor in an Engineering unit, he/she would receive advanced training in topography. If a sailor is a Meteorologist, he/she would receive advanced training in meteorology. It's like 10% of the Army that belongs to "Combat Arms" type units(Such as infantry, artillary, etc)In the Navy and Air Force, there are very few Combat arms occupations.

- The lack of body armor, heavy weapons, or specialized combat vehicles for ground deployment

Are you being willfully dishonest? You said this earlier. We have seen infantry ground troops with specialized uniforms with body armor, that fly around in specialized troop transports, and they belong to Starfleet....and "They spend thousands of hours in combat simulations."

- ETA: "desertion" is evidently not even a thing anymore, since Starfleet officers are seen to desert their posts something like four times a season without being prosecuted for it; I don't believe modern militaries take an officer going AWOL so lightly.

Such as?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Does a firefighter's context of "protection" include neutralizing foreign

Depends. Was the fire started by a foreigner?

And this is Star Trek we're talking about; imagine if a five alarm fire achieved SENTIENCE and started burning down buildings on purpose because the sprinkler system at the local bank killed one of its children. You'd need to call the fire department to transplant this sentient fire and send it some place where it could burn happily on its own without harming anyone.

What would lead you to that conclusion? Certainly not this thread as the few people who have admitted their background seem to be in the "is a military" camp.

I worked as a defense contractor for several years. I know and have known active and former military. I know of very few who see Starfleet's actions and behavior as being consistent with a professional military.

In fact, it was a USN pilot I went to high school with who originally pitched to me the idea that "Kirk was kind of military, but Picard and those guys weren't." It made a lot of sense to me and it's one of the reasons I feel that TOS/TMP is probably a different continuity than TNG+