I'd like to see an S31 series
Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?
- Thread starter The Wormhole
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^ Be kind of like the resent Mission: Impossible movie series, everything is unofficial and off the books.
The last movie (iirc) said that the IMF had no government oversight.
Somewhat like the Omega Directive, upper level Starfleet command officers are briefed on a classified Starfleet directive requiring them to support S31 if requested.
Nothing underhanded.
The last movie (iirc) said that the IMF had no government oversight.
Not blackmail, but simply another aspect of the officers duties.
Somewhat like the Omega Directive, upper level Starfleet command officers are briefed on a classified Starfleet directive requiring them to support S31 if requested.
Nothing underhanded.
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I always thought this was the very thing Section31 would fight against--threats to the Federation's security.
He probably thought Starfleet's power would keep things in control--which suggests Starfleet is the military. How can he expect an exploration organization to keep the peace....
The M:I franchise has never been entirely consistent on who the IMF report to but they do report to someone.
Most famous quote in the franchise:
Recorded Voice: Good morning/afternoon/evening, Mr. Briggs/Mr. Phelps/Mr Hunt.
- Your mission Dan/Jim/Ethan, should you choose/decide to accept it, ...
- As always, should you or any of your I.M. Force be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions. This tape/disc will self-destruct in five/ten seconds. Good luck, Dan/Jim.
Bold mine for emphasis.
In the OS (1966-1973) they were usually depicted as independent contractors apart from the Team Leader (and IMF Director) original LTCOL (ret'd) Briggs then Jim Phelps, and were Non-Official Covers under the direction of an unidentified govertment agency.
During the 1980s, it was sometimes implied that Phelps had taken the IMF independent. However, M:I (1996) shows Phelps & Hunt reporting to Kittridge (later implied to be "The Secretary" or IMF Director) who is part of the CIA and is later replaced as the head of the IMF (refered to as "Mr Secretary") by Hunley, (a) director of the CIA.
The Omega Directive and Section 31 are not connected at all. There's nothing in the episode The Omega Directive to suggest this at all. The novels do suggest Section 31 had involvement in the Omega particle experiments which went horrible south that are mentioned in the episode, but the actual directive itself is all Starfleet.
^ And unlike Section 31, there's an actual, good, logical, perfectly sensible REASON why the Omega Directive exists: if Omega gets out of control, it can not only explode and kill people, but render warp drive itself unusable within that region of space, which would cause devastating effects quadrant-wide.
Think of it this way: If Section 31 labels you a threat, you have no rights. You don't get to appeal, you don't get to see a lawyer, all you get is the business end of a phaser. If they feel like wiping you out, it's just ZAP! and you are gone. Does that sound like the kind of organization you want protecting the Federation? Hell, they had a SPY inside the President's cabinet, for fuck's sake!
Again: Section 31 literally does whatever it wants. They don't have to justify what they do, they just do it. Whatever suits their whims. There's nothing more dangerous to a democracy.
Think of it this way: If Section 31 labels you a threat, you have no rights. You don't get to appeal, you don't get to see a lawyer, all you get is the business end of a phaser. If they feel like wiping you out, it's just ZAP! and you are gone. Does that sound like the kind of organization you want protecting the Federation? Hell, they had a SPY inside the President's cabinet, for fuck's sake!
Again: Section 31 literally does whatever it wants. They don't have to justify what they do, they just do it. Whatever suits their whims. There's nothing more dangerous to a democracy.
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It wasn't my intent to imply that they were, only that there would be (similar to the omega directive) a secret directive within Starfleet, known only to select officers, that directed Starfleet to assist S31.
The Omega Directive and Section 31 are not connected at all.
Sorry if there was some confusion.
And what it wants is to (again) protect and continue the Federation, which we saw them do.
Every knowledgeable advisor he has would quietly take him to the side and explain that he was being a idiot and the Federation likely needed S31 far more than it needed him.
It might be more accurate that the IMF gets their instructions (and financing) from someone, I can't recall (in the original series) them reporting to anyone. Any "report" would probably be in the form of success.
Information might be strictly one way, in the form of a optional assignment and a briefing.
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When Bashir and O'Brien were poking around in Sloan's head he tried to trap them by giving them access to all the dirty little secrets he had on Federation politicians:
BASHIR: I'm collecting medical information, not surveillance reports.
SLOAN: It's not just any report. That's on Jaresh-Inyo.
BASHIR: Former President Inyo?
SLOAN: The one and only.
BASHIR: My God. Thirty One had a man in his cabinet.
SLOAN: It's not just any report. That's on Jaresh-Inyo.
BASHIR: Former President Inyo?
SLOAN: The one and only.
BASHIR: My God. Thirty One had a man in his cabinet.
Thirty One isn't a part of Starfleet, but they like to think of themselves as patriots and protectors. They're really just a rogue agency bordering on a terrorist organization, but they think they're the good guys and so they believe anything and everything they do is justified.
Earth would've been destroyed and the rest of the former Federation members would be under Dominion control.
Someone, somewhere along the line created and gave authority to Section 31. If the Federation really wanted them shut down, someone would figure out how to do it.
Section 31 would try to take him out. Because that's just what they do. The very fact that they had an operative inside the President's Cabinet proves that they have no loyalty TO said President.
Despite what they claim, Section 31's only loyalty is to themselves, not the Federation. If we are supposed to believe otherwise, why won't Section 31 report to the President? Why won't they submit themselves to Federation oversight? What do they have to hide?
We saw nothing of the kind. And I see no reason to believe anything they say - you can't trust anyone who won't obey the law.
Oh yes, let's talk about that, shall we? Article 14, Section 31 of the EARTH STARFLEET (not the Federation Starfleet - they are different organizations) charter, merely gave some allowance for bending the rules at times of extraordinary threats. It gives NO legitimacy to the kind of organization that Section 31 actually IS.
Note my reference to the Earth Starfleet vs. Federation Starfleet. They are not the same. So any part of the Earth Starfleet charter cannot possibly be binding upon the Federation.
While it's obvious that nobody wants that to happen, it does raise a point:
Why does the Federation deserve to exist if it violates the very principles of freedom and democracy upon which it was built?
The simple fact is, whether we're talking about people or governments, you don't get to just cast your principles aside when it becomes inconvenient. There is always an obligation to stick to those principles - no matter what. Because if that can't be done - then what are you protecting?
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Because we saw this when?
S31 "taking out" the Federation president again when?
Why would they (or anyone outside the president's employ) have loyalty to the Federation president? Often in the show and movies the president comes off as a clueless boob.
Nope, their aim is the protection of the Federation. Where do you see this "only loyal to themselves?"
Why would they?
Possibly because that not how they're set up, this gives the Council that" plausible deniability" coverage.
Since they essentially operate from the shadows, the question answers itself.
Actually we did. In ENT and later DS9 S31 acted for the benefit of Humanity and later the Federation.
That okay, instead believe in their results.
Who say it was binding, that simply how S31 was created. When Earth became a member, S31 expanded the scope of it's protection.
But wouldn't the Federation's most important principles be centered on protecting the lifes, freedoms and way of life of the people who make up the Federation?
If the Federation's primary principles are based around everyone has to die and/or be enslave rather than break some esoteric abstract concept, then that principle is counter-productive and dangerous.
Death is inconvenient isn't it?
And where do you get the idea that this is one of the Federation's ultimate principles? It doesn't sound very well thought out.
Not if those principles are wrong.
The lives of people, their families, their freedoms, their homes.
And also their principles ... which might be considerably different that yours.
^ Yes, they do.
I will once again plug David Mack's novel Control which gives some insight over how much er, control Section 31 has over the Federation and Starfleet and how some of the many attempts to expose them and neutralize them over the two centuries have turned out.
Yes, why wouldn't they?
Starfleet Intelligence seemed to be behind the USS Pegasus experiment, which mean they understand when to turn a blind eye to things like treaties with enemy powers if it will help the Federation.
Helping the Federation first would be a good first principle.
Why would the Federation bring into existence laws that hurt the Federation?
Helping the Federation first would be a good first principle.
Why would the Federation bring into existence laws that hurt the Federation?
And at the end of the episode the Director of Starfleet Intelligence was arrested and charged with treason along with Pressman.
I always thought Section 31 was behind the Pegasus thing. That's definitely in their wheelhouse.
Braga claims the mention to a secret group in Starfleet security Riker mentions in TATV is meant to be a reference to Section 31.
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