Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[The Wormhole]

I personally define a "military organization" as an armed forces organization whose primary function and purpose is defense -- whether of a nation or state or government, through the use of force, implied or direct. They are limited in their scope to that essential function.

To me, Starfleet is partially a military organization. But since their raison d'etre is not defense, I think defining Starfleet strictly as a military organization doesn't capture either their true, essential purpose or the full scope of their responsibilities. I agree that many aspects of Starfleet are similar to the military and they wield many of those functions. But in terms of how we today define a military, Starfleet is much more than that. They're like NASA, the U.N., NATO, and the Navy.

The only reason we don't see Starfleet engaged in defense as a matter of course is because the majority of Star Trek takes place during peacetime. If one were to have a show about the US military during peacetime it too would have them doing other things. This isn't a reflection of their nature as a military, it's a reflection of the fact that even today militaries are about more than just defense and fighting. When a threat does come knocking, be it the Borg, Dominion, Romulans whoever, Starfleet will drop everything else it has on the go and defend the Federation. Even during peacetime, we know it's Starfleet ship that patrol the Federation's borders and engage in policing Federation space.

For all we know Admiral Ross was military rather than Starfleet prior to the buildup to the Dominion War.

No, Admiral Ross has a Starfleet Academy diploma in his office.

 

[Ithekro]

Oddly, Starfleet was still doing exploration and diplomacy during the Dominion War.

 

[Spot261]

In a much more limited sense.

 

[Tenacity]

Oddly, Starfleet was still doing exploration and diplomacy during the Dominion War.

And the same time that the Enterprise D's was engaged in science and exploration missions, there was continuing on again, off again war going on with the Cardassians which had been going on for a decade or more.

Picard spoke of the war resulting in millions of deaths.

 

[Spot261]

I've always took that to mean that even with millions dead the Cardassian conflict was a localised affair which was largely handled by assets in the immediate vicinity and maybe a certain level of reinforcement from elsewhere. SF had no intent to invade Cardassia or escalate the conflict, nor did they feel threatened beyond the colonies immediately in the way of danger.

Hence the seeming policy of rapproachment and containment from which the Maquis were born. SF felt they were in a position of some luxury given their huge advantages and thus opted not to over react to a limited threat. No doubt they hoped to pacify the Cardassians and move the conflict towards the negotiating table, which is exactly the sort of approach we see in later seasons of TNG and early DS9.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Chief Miles O'Brien had fought in the Federation-Cardassian War(s) under the command of Captain Benjamin Maxwell.

 

[Tenacity]

For all we know Admiral Ross was military rather than Starfleet prior to the buildup to the Dominion War.

No, Admiral Ross has a Starfleet Academy diploma in his office.

In one of Robert Heinlein's novels, in order to be a "sky marshal" you join the fleet and work your way up to admiral. Then quit. Then join the infantry and work you way up to general.

Ross could have been a senior officer in both Starfleet and the "real" military.

One wonders if all those other Starship classes that pop up from First Contact into the Dominion War were not "Starfleet" but the actual Federation military ships, and that Starfleet was drafted and given a uniform change when that started.

I don't recall a change in uniform, although we didn't see the crews on the majority of the ships employed in the war. We don't really know what they were wearing.

A variation on this could be that Starfleet has separate organizational military and exploration commands within Starfleet's overall structure. Ships and personnel are shifted between organizations as priorities change.

I also like the idea that a lot of the ships that started appearing during the Dominion were from inactive reserves.

Or the ships that were part of the Federation members "home fleets" that were called up for combined service. And there we (again) would have no idea what the crew would be wearing.

 

[jaime]

And how many times have Starfleet officers used the word "fire?"

Could it be far more times than officers have said Starfleet isn't a military.Okay, which half?

Anything with archaeologists is acting in exploration as part of a group, carrying passengers has included colonists founding new outposts, investigating unidentified vessels is by definintion exploration, searching for missing starships often entails exploration (otherwise they might know where they are) and attending inauguration ceremonies (as well as other diplomatic functions) are again often working as part of a group undertaking exploration. Even fixing an astrogation installation is part of exploration, as cartography is part of that (don't know where you have and haven't been if your map is wonky.)
And using weapons does not automatically define a military, it's about intent. They could be firing on rocks, they could be firing in self defence, they could be firing to perform an emergency c section on a space cow. Otherwise...anyone appearing in some variant of The Apprentice is no longer a reality TV personality, and is a military commander...

 

[The Old Mixer]

Otherwise...anyone appearing in some variant of The Apprentice is no longer a reality TV personality, and is a military commander...

Totally lost me there.

 

[fireproof78]

Totally lost me there.

I believe he is referring to the use of the term "Fire" in Tenacity's posts.

 

[Tallguy]

Ahhhh...

 

[Ithekro]

I don't recall a change in uniform, although we didn't see the crews on the majority of the ships employed in the war. We don't really know what they were wearing.

When they changed from the more colorful TNG/DS9 uniforms to the grey First Contact uniforms was during the buildup to the Dominion War.

 

[jaime]

One last thought....space the final frontier.
People are usually armed on frontiers because they are usually a long way from the forces of law and order (or indeed, the cavalry)
Starfleet is both frontiersman, and cavalry. It chooses to identify with the frontiersman. Not the cavalry. Because then they aren't at the frontier, they are chasing behind it picking up.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

One last thought....space the final frontier.
People are usually armed on frontiers because they are usually a long way from the forces of law and order (or indeed, the cavalry)
Starfleet is both frontiersman, and cavalry. It chooses to identify with the frontiersman. Not the cavalry. Because then they aren't at the frontier, they are chasing behind it picking up.

Starfleet is an organized, uniformed service with hierarchy, structure, tactics, training and recourses. The frontiersmen were nothing of the sort.

Besides, if you're a Native American it doesn't matter too much if the one shooting at you is a frontiersman or a cavalry soldier.

 

[queerTrekker]

it appears to be a form of military in part. i always considered it an amalgam of different fields: Political, Military and Science. i thought it projected this organization where the three different fields at somepoint merged together during the federation's development.

 

[jaime]

Starfleet is an organized, uniformed service with hierarchy, structure, tactics, training and recourses. The frontiersmen were nothing of the sort.

Besides, if you're a Native American it doesn't matter too much if the one shooting at you is a frontiersman or a cavalry soldier.

Except Rodenberry pitched it as Wagon Train to the Stars. And Trek is precisely different in how it treats its 'Native' populations. Closer to the 'explorers' that landed rather than the later colonists. And I suppose the difference between frontiersman and cavalry, is the frontiersmen didn't universally have a policy of shooting at the native peoples. And that's one of the big differences between an armed for defence (even if it's the defence of simply showing your teeth) explorer, and an armed military expedition. One will shoot at you to get what it wants. One only shoots to ensure survival, and even then, in Treks case, may rather retreat or sacrifice itself for a greater good, including the good of that which is discovered. It's the difference between Starfleet and the Klingons.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Except Rodenberry pitched it as Wagon Train to the Stars.

He could have pitched it as Little House on the Alien Planet Prairie to get a green light from the executives. That's irrelevant. What we ended up with (and are discussing) was nothing of the sort. The Starfleet we saw was an organized, uniformed service with hierarchy, structure, tactics, training and recourses and not random frontiersmen, settlers and pilgrims.

And Trek is precisely different in how it treats its 'Native' populations. Closer to the 'explorers' that landed rather than the later colonists. And I suppose the difference between frontiersman and cavalry, is the frontiersmen didn't universally have a policy of shooting at the native peoples. And that's one of the big differences between an armed for defence (even if it's the defence of simply showing your teeth) explorer, and an armed military expedition. One will shoot at you to get what it wants. One only shoots to ensure survival, and even then, in Treks case, may rather retreat or sacrifice itself for a greater good, including the good of that which is discovered. It's the difference between Starfleet and the Klingons.

You missed my point completely. When I was referring the Native Americans I wasn't talking about the Hill People of the planet Neural, or the people of Vaal, or the natives of Amerind. I was talking about other 23rd/24th century powers such as the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and the Dominion, who most certainly view Starfleet as the armed forces of the Federation. They even designate the Enterprise as a "battlecruiser".

 

[J.T.B.]

I don't know enough about 19th century British naval history to have an informed opinion one way or the other.

Well, to make it short, there was almost zero chance of a naval war against Britain, because the Royal Navy was so vastly superior to any rival. But the British Empire was spread around the world, so there were great numbers of cruisers and smaller vessels stationed around the globe. They carried out a wide variety of roles, from suppressing the slave trade to exploring rivers to mapping the Great Barrier Reef to transporting government officials. The US Navy was stationed similarly though of course on a much smaller scale, and its cruisers tasked with a wide variety of duties as I mentioned back in post 49.

The point being, a military organization can do all sorts of things in peacetime that don't appear especially warlike. Whether defense is the "primary" purpose or not, the functions are shifted according to national priorities.

We know Starfleet's primary mission is exploration and contacting new life. This is a constant refrain from characters throughout all the shows and films, it's the core of most plots when you get down to it. Also:
"Space...the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. Its five year mission: to explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life, and new civilizations. To boldly go where no one has gone before."

Not "to defend the Federation from all threats, both foreign and domestic."

But that's only about one ship. And that ship was more often on routine duties more comparable to an old naval colonial cruiser than exploring. And was pulled off even those duties when a war started, and to participate in wargame exercises.

In one of Robert Heinlein's novels, in order to be a "sky marshal" you join the fleet and work your way up to admiral. Then quit. Then join the infantry and work you way up to general.

I believe what it said was one had to have commanded an infantry regiment as well as a navy capital ship. Either way, it sounds like it would only work with a much-increased lifespan!

Starfleet is both frontiersman, and cavalry. It chooses to identify with the frontiersman. Not the cavalry. Because then they aren't at the frontier, they are chasing behind it picking up.

Frontiersmen aren't representatives of governmental authority, but Starfleet clearly is, so I don't see the parallel.

But speaking of the cavalry, troops of the regular US Army administered, regulated and patrolled Yellowstone and Yosemite National Parks for almost 30 years starting in the 1880s, putting in place many environmental protection and conservation policies and standards that would later be carried on by the National Parks Service. Another example of a military organization performing not-so-military-seeming service.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Another thing that paints Starfleet as a military (other than the fac that it is an armed, uniformed force so the options are military or policing/rescue, the other sorts don't carry guns) is the huge variety of things it does do, as I believe that civilian agencies tend to be rather more specialised, doing only one thing or at most two or three related things and so depending on the situation might have long periods of down-time? Whereas military forces try to keep busy as much as possible, so will generally throw themselves into whatever job is available so often end up doing a wide variety of stuff.

 

[fireproof78]

Except Rodenberry pitched it as Wagon Train to the Stars. And Trek is precisely different in how it treats its 'Native' populations. Closer to the 'explorers' that landed rather than the later colonists. And I suppose the difference between frontiersman and cavalry, is the frontiersmen didn't universally have a policy of shooting at the native peoples. And that's one of the big differences between an armed for defence (even if it's the defence of simply showing your teeth) explorer, and an armed military expedition. One will shoot at you to get what it wants. One only shoots to ensure survival, and even then, in Treks case, may rather retreat or sacrifice itself for a greater good, including the good of that which is discovered. It's the difference between Starfleet and the Klingons.

No, just no. TOS showed Kirk and company as soldiers when it suited the purpose of the story. "Errand of Mercy" and Kirk describes himself as a soldier to Kor, and is ready to fight the Klingons to save the Organians. "Friday's Child" shows a red shirt dying in the first act because he sees a Klingon and immediately draws his phaser. This is off the top of my head. There are plenty of others.
Or TNG, if you like. In "Angel One" the ENT-D is preparing to go to the Neutral Zone as a show of force against a Romulan battlecruiser encroaching upon the Neutral Zone.

Militaries have a many different tools to achieve their goals and missions. The idea that a military just goes around and shoots to achieve its end not only misses the point of a military, but overlooks the humanitarian, research, construction and transportation missions that are part of their duties.

Sorry, your examples are an oversimplification, at best, and indicate a gross misunderstanding of a military organization.