Yeah so also which incarnation of Starfleet are we talking about too? Original Trek or new Trek?
Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?
- Thread starter The Wormhole
- Start date
- Status
Yeah so also which incarnation of Starfleet are we talking about too? Original Trek or new Trek?
The word armada has been used for other things, There was a group of probes from multiple nations called the Halley Armada send out to investigate the comet back in 1985. This was non-military.
Both should have the same purpose.
Both should have the same purpose.
The line is in reference to the Kelvin-verse Starfleet, but the same term fits Prime Starfleet too.
A peacekeeping armada would certainly be military.
Actually, nuPike says that the Federation is a "humanitarian and peacekeeping armada"...so he's full of it.
Those movies have such unbelievably clunky dialogue anyway ("aft nacelle" anyone?). In this case, I just assume he's referring to Starfleet, as the whole conversation makes no sense if he really is talking about the Federation. Pike asks Kirk if he's heard of the Federation, but considering that's his nation, he should have. That's like walking into an American bar today and asking a young guy if he's heard of the United States.
If the people who wrote that don't know the difference between Starfleet and the Federation, then I'm not going to take their word for what either is.
There's also a Nissan Armada, but it's pretty clear what they were going for in the movie. Armada is Spanish for a naval fleet, and in some countries for the navy itself.
I hope the Laurentian system doesn't have an England.
Captain Pike said that the Federation was "a peace keeping and humanitarian armada," not Starfleet.
Which makes no sense.
They're referred to by David Marcus explicitly as the Military in WOK.
True, but while TOS never quite strays into the territory of an ongoing war, it skirted the edges a little -- the tensions with the Romulans (with whom Earth had already previously been at war) and the Klingons (with whom hostilities were always at a knife's edge to war), suggests that even if Starfleet is at war with nobody, they could be called upon to mobilize at any moment. "Errand of Mercy" is all about the two fleets preparing for open declaration of war, so whatever Roddenberry's intenions or otherwise, the perfect utopian humans were not set in stone during TOS, nor was the idea of a demilitarized Starfleet.
Marcus isn't a Starfleet officer, so his opinion may not be accurate and in fact contradicts Picard in "Peak Performance" (TNG), who firmly says that Starfleet is not a military organization. Picard has been a life-long member of Starfleet and would know exactly what job he has.
(Incidentally, that's why some of us are "resistant" to the "Starfleet is a military" theory; it been canonically stated not be one on a consistent basis -- even the reboots got this right. The question has been answered, very specifically, and the franchise has not changed that answer; the case was closed a long time ago. Honestly, I'm a little surprised that there's so much resistance to the idea of Starfleet not being a military. I mean, why is it so important that the theory is proven right?)
Because "Peak Performance" while being one of the episodes that states that "Starfleet isn't a military" also shows that Starfleet is a military organisation by the plot of the episode.
Captain's log, Stardate 42923.4. Despite misgivings, I have agreed to Starfleet's request that the Enterprise divert to the Braslota System, to take part in a war game exercise. Joining us as observer and mediator is the Zakdorn Master Strategist, Sirna Kolrami.
War games, as far as I know, are conducted only by militaries (at least the type shown in the episode).
(Kolrami is giving a presentation at the viewscreen.)
KOLRAMI: The Braslota System. In orbit around the second planet is the eighty-year old Starcruiser, Hathaway. He is still your first choice?
PICARD: Commander Riker will captain the Hathaway.
KOLRAMI: You will have forty eight hours to ready your vessel before the Enterprise attacks.
RIKER: And we'll experience actual battle conditions?
KOLRAMI: Correct. Engineering will disconnect the Enterprise's weapons and link the system with the modified laser-pulse beam. All hits will be recorded electronically. If the computer registers damage, it will act accordingly, shutting down the affected areas for the appropriate repair time. Additional questions? Captain Picard, it is my understanding that you initially resisted Starfleet's request for this simulation.
PICARD: Yes.
KOLRAMI: May I know why?
PICARD: Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.
KOLRAMI: Then why am I here?
PICARD: With the Borg threat, I decided that my officers and I needed to hone our tactical skills. In a crisis situation, it is prudent to have several options.
RIKER: I prefer brains over brawn as well. I think it's a waste of effort to test our combat skills. It's a minor province in the make-up of a starship captain.
KOLRAMI: Your objection is noted. Let us hope your distaste for the exercise will not affect your strategic abilities.
RIKER: Mister Kolrami, when I agree to do something. I do it. Do you care to surrender now, Captain?
This scene contains the reference to "Starfleet not being a military organisation" and it's purpose being "exploration". On the other hand, it contradicts itself by confirming that these are wargames (which only militaries do) and agreeing that combat skills are part of the role of a starship captain. The idea that being a military and being an exploration agency is contradictory has been debunked several times up thread so I'm not going to go into that again.
Starfleet's involvement in the Dominion War arc - arguably as the lead force for most of it - also proves that Starfleet is a military when the situation calls for it.
The only elements to a "pure" military that I do not believe are part of Starfleet's regular standing force are fighters (they exist but have only been seen during declared war), artilary/armor (never seen, might exist/might not) and infantry (occassionally implied to exist, certainly should, but probably a reserve function ala the US National Guard or the UK Army Reserve (previously Territorial Army)), the rest of the "not a military" is IMO politics (in and out of universe) and a wish to depict Starfleet as the "good guys". After all, Starfleet (Academy)'s motto, though civilian in sentiment, appears to combine the US Naval Academy's motto and the RAF's, both of which are certainly military organisations.
If Starfleet was indeed a military, Picard would have no reason to object to the war games training; if the Enterprise was a military ship, of course they would need to do war games training. Picard's reason for agreeing to do the exercise explains the seeming contradiction anyways; the Enterprise crew (and Starfleet) need to be able to defend themselves if they get in a fight they can't resolve in another way. There's no reason why a non-military ship that's authorized to carry weapons to defend itself couldn't have combat practice and training, just like you don't need to be a solider to take self-defense lessons or apply for a license and practice for a gun.
(To summarize, Picard is agreeing to run the mission in spite of not being a solider on a warship; a distinction and objection that he would not make if he was a military man, since it would be as pointless as a pro ball player objecting to batting practice.)
Well, in an all-out war, what would Starfleet not participate, since they do have armed ships and tactical training and I'm sure the Federation wouldn't object? (Also, bear in mind, we only saw one front of the war, from a Starfleet perspective; it's hardly a full picture of the entire Dominion War.) On top of that, ENT season three showed that Starfleet can conduct "military missions" despite not being a military when they're needed to act as such.
However, many of the "Starfleet is not military" instances are brought up among fellow officers or in places where there would be no reason to use euphemisms or mince words.
Hardly conclusive, since it would also work for a non-military organization devoted to exploring space.
Also worth noting, Krall's backstory in Star Trek Beyond makes no sense if Starfleet was a military (also, Scotty has pointed out in the Kelvin timeline series that Starfleet is not a military).
How many non military or non quasi-military or non paramilitary organizations bear arms, have ranks, uniforms, and their officers are court-martialed by JAG for disobeying orders?
War games are done by civilians all the time in a similar manner as the War College. On a table top. If these civilians had access to larger ships they would conduct war games with them as well. The largest I've seen are Radio Controlled scale models of battleships shooting BBs at each other in ponds, but the more tactical and strategic are usually on tables with much smaller miniatures.
Reenactors have their own version of war game when they reenact major and minor battles of old wars. Paint Ball enthusiasts have war games on weekends in armor with non-lethal (though potentally painful) weaponry. Some are more tactical than others. Some are even strategic if they have enough land and variable terrain to work with.
If people could get enough World War II tanks together and make fixing them relatively inexpensive, as well as safe for the occupants, they'd go out and have war games with those too. Might even be a fun sport to watch.
And that is not even going into the subject of computers.
Reenactors have their own version of war game when they reenact major and minor battles of old wars. Paint Ball enthusiasts have war games on weekends in armor with non-lethal (though potentally painful) weaponry. Some are more tactical than others. Some are even strategic if they have enough land and variable terrain to work with.
If people could get enough World War II tanks together and make fixing them relatively inexpensive, as well as safe for the occupants, they'd go out and have war games with those too. Might even be a fun sport to watch.
And that is not even going into the subject of computers.
It does if Pike didn't mean "armada" in the naval sense, but rather as a synonym for "powerhouse" or "mighty."
Again Pike was referring to the Federation, not Starfleet.
Given Pike dressing down of Kirk in the next movie over stopping the volcano, the Federation probably doesn't deserve to be called "humanitarian."
Police officers can face a board of review and potentially lose their jobs. But if they are facing criminal charges with the chance of being put in confinement, this isn't done internally inside the police department. They go to a civilian court.
Starfleet has it's own military courts.
Last edited:
- Status
