Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[Kemaiku]

So who were those ground troopers we saw in Ar-558?

Yes, who are these weird people that appeared for that one episode that are never mentioned before, or ever again after. Who exist as rather disgusting xenophobes ready to kill anything that twitches and stand against everything the Federation holds dear?

A strange apparition like group who existed for mere hours and were gone, no name, no insignia, no allegiance, almost like they were very deliberate and poorly thought out set pieces in an episodic drama that were dropped without much more thought than they were created with.

I guess we'll never truely know...

(Since the show runners refuse to talk about them since.)

 

[The Wormhole]

Yes, who are these weird people that appeared for that one episode that are never mentioned before, or ever again after.

Actually, these troops were previously seen in Nor the Battle to the Strong (or however that title goes). "Federation troops" and troop carriers were also mentioned frequently throughout the Dominion War episodes on DS9. I imagine these were the same type of Starfleet personnel O'Brien was with during his soldier days. Likewise Janeway, when she talked about her infantry experience. They weren't just thought up for AR-558 and forgotten. Indeed, for awhile some speculated this is what became of the MACOs after the founding of the Federation, though that had problems since they used navy style ranks like the rest of Starfleet while the MACOs used army ranks. It's moot now, we know from Beyond the MACOs were disbanded when the Federation was formed.

 

[Tenacity]

Show me one advanced science lab in a battleship, or astrometric studies, or advanced studies of say cancer research, medicine, cosmology, cybernetics.

The last Battleship was decommissioned over 24 years ago. However, the current HMS Enterprise is a British Royal Navy oceanographic survey ship, in addition to her survey abilities, she has a couple of 20 mm cannons, plus miniguns and machine guns. Oh, and she has engaged in evacuations too.

... and stand against everything the Federation holds dear?

One of the things we see that the Federation holds dear the concept of protecting itself through the repeated use of military force.

Starfleet is a scientific and humanitrian organisation.

And the Federation's offensive/defensive organization, and does diplomacy, mine inspections, colony support, rescue, etc...

or advanced studies of say cancer research

While not aboard a battleship, the initial discoveries and research that lead to chemotherapy came from the US Army.

to do nothing but fight and kill

 

[fireproof78]

Who are built from the ground up to do nothing but fight and kill using weapons.

Starfleet is a scientific and humanitrian organisation.

Show me one advanced science lab in a battleship, or astrometric studies, or advanced studies of say cancer research, medicine, cosmology, cybernetics.

I'll wait here until you post one.

This is an oversimplification, at best.

Starfleet can serve as a military, as well as exploration, as has been stated repeatedly in various places.

Just because the US Navy doesn't have a ship like the Enterprise that is a multi-disciplinary platform, doesn't mean they don't engage in science, humanitarian and relief efforts. The ocean going navies just happen to have multiple ships for specific tasks, rather than one big ship.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

So just water and water chemicals. Not space, medicine, genetics, engineering of all forms, etc

???

Not quite what you were after, but here you go.

A few points from it:
Code 6100 - Chemistry Division
Code 6900 - Center for Biomolecular Science and Engineering
Code 7100 - Acoustics Division
Code 7300 - Oceanography Division
Code 7400 - Marine Geosciences Division
Code 7500 - Marine Meteorology Division
Code 7600 - Space Science Division

Are you really that obtuse?

 

[Kemaiku]

You're right, I really just don't see Starfleet being miltary, but if you want to argue so badly that they exist soley to wage war, more power to you.

 

[JoeZhang]

You're right, I really just don't see Starfleet being miltary, but if you want to argue so badly that they exist soley to wage war, more power to you.

I am concern that this amount of straw will cause a fire hazard.

 

[J.T.B.]

There's a difference between being prepared, being ready and able to defend yourself and being a top down, institutional organisation with the intent of waging and sustaining war.

I'm not sure why we need to adopt such a limited definition. This thread has given plenty of examples of naval forces performing all sorts of non-war activities during peacetime. There are also plenty of real world examples of military forces which are for defense of the home territory only and have little or no expeditionary capability.

Show me one advanced science lab in a battleship, or astrometric studies, or advanced studies of say cancer research, medicine, cosmology, cybernetics.

I might ask, show me a scientific research organization that fights a war. And not as a support component, but as the main fighting force.

But, again, standing military forces have historically carried out widely varied activities in peacetime, and many scientific discoveries, inventions and breakthroughs have come from military personnel. The US Army used to have a branch called the Topographical Engineers whose whole reason for being was exploration, surveying and mapping. The French army likewise, the Ingenieurs-geographes. The US Navy used to have a small branch of officers called Professors of Mathematics who ran the Naval Observatory and published a great deal of astronomical information.

And the research and discoveries continue to the present day:
New Sand Fly Species and Potential Vector of Leishmaniasis Discovered by Navy Entomologists

Starfleet crams more than any universities worth of science into every ship, then a few weapons on top.

Every ship? Do we know that? The Trek productions barely scratched the surface of Starfleet's day to day operations. And I don't think Defiant was designed primarily for research capabilities.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I just hope that in some future Trek production they show a group of Starfleet officers arguing about whether or not they are a military force. The writers would be able to lift whole sections of dialogue from this site.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

You're right, I really just don't see Starfleet being miltary, but if you want to argue so badly that they exist soley to wage war, more power to you.

Not to be insulting, but the underlined text is what's making you sound really, really, really dumb in this conversation. Even the real world military doesn't exist "solely to wage war" even during wartime.

Oh, and for the record, the entirity of my childhood was spent growing up on a military base. Where I went to school. You know, that place where you learn all kinds of things that have absolutely nothing to do with war or killing. And yes, that included math, science, history, and literature. A shocking revelation, I'm sure.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Well there has certainly been enough silly to spread around in this thread, but that's typical for the 151354987485131687984165198791th "Starfleet military or not?" thread.

 

[Jedman67]

Good points, particularly on the joint diplomat/soldier idea, but here's something interesting I got from that scene;

Picard resists the idea of a battle simulation because he feels Starfleet isn't the military. That's the actual reason he gave.

Suggesting that Starfleet shouldn't participate in any military activity, well, because it isn't one.

Except when the Borg, Romulans, Cardassians or Dominion attacks or does something, they're the ones that are called to defend the Federation.

So with one part saying we are explorers, and the other showing military behavior, we end up with this weird scenario: a scientist/explorer wants to join Starfleet and enjoy playing at military, without all the trappings of being on military. Getting to wear uniform with rank insignia, getting promotions, being called "Sir" or "Ma'am", being saluted to etc.

Except they're not the military?

I always felt that TNG played a little too heavy-handed with the "were not a military but we are" nonsense. Picard should have drilled the crew to be more responsive and better trained, in the hope that should push come to shove military action could be avoided. I think the in-universe explanation could simply be an evolution of the concept of military and war.

The Starfleet Charter could be that of a civil service organization, something like a coast guard/national guard/corps of engineers institution; essentially a peacetime navy with the capability of defense when absolutely necessary. War with the Borg/Klingons/Dominion or whomever allowed the 'full military capabilities' of starfleet to be reactivated, with ships being rearmed and more classes and supplemental training focusing on military engagements rather than just peacetime science. DS9 in the beginning allowed for defense against pirates and occasional alien raiders while not having enough weapons to conduct war (or defend against the cardassian fleet) - the pending war with the Dominion changed that and gave them the Defiant and some serious phaser and torpedo upgrades.
While in todays world, court-martials, military ranks and forms and codes of military justice are reserved (almost) exclusively for "real" militaries, in the future there's no reason why a civilian organization can't - police and firefighters for example have ranks of "captain" and "Lieutenant" "Marshal"; it's not beyond reason that they could absorb more miltary ranks too.

TBH the above is just a rationalization. In my mind, Starfleet is military plain and simple, and all the on-screen dialog to the contrary is just sloppy writing.

 

[Jedi_Master]

When it comes down to it, there is no need to codify whether or not Starfleet is a military because that would kill the flexibility needed by the writers and/or the cover those same writers need to excuse their laziness.

 

[Tallguy]

You're right, I really just don't see Starfleet being miltary, but if you want to argue so badly that they exist soley to wage war, more power to you.

I think this answers the thread question. If someone think that is all that a military is, or thinks that when people call Starfleet a military that's what they mean then this is where the problem lies.

What if they exist to explore AND to wage war? Because they clearly have in all three centuries we have seen.

 

[apollo1984]

I am not sure, perhaps the resistance is due to the fact that Starfleet being military somehow disrupts the star trek image of the future being a utopia where no military was needed as mankind was a more evolved race by then.

Me, I have no objection to star fleet being military, though that's not to say military in the future or in trek universe is exactly the same as military today is, perhaps that is why they can use naval ranks and be in effect a space version of the navy without having to be as we would consider navy in space to be today (my view on that would be it would be similar to Battlestar Galactica (yes I know they don't exactly use true naval ranks, yet Galactica and Pegasus were aircraft carriers in space).

 

[Nightdiamond]

Here's another piece to add to the topic; "I thought Starfleet didn't believe in warships". (Kira, DS9)

To me, this points more to an ideological thing. It's borderline utopian thinking.

When the Borg became a threat, they built the Defiant and intended to build an entire fleet.

But when they thought it became less of a threat, they just stopped working on the project and went back to the way things were.

This looks like a mix of a little hedonism, denial, utopia style thinking.

Maybe combining services allows them to accomplish a number of things at once. What do I know, maybe it's a genius idea that works.

But then again, how practical it really is, I don't know.

Take having children and families living on Starships for example.

Is it really practical when a sudden war or battle breaks out?

 

[Tallguy]

Even Roddenberry said (in TMP) that the Enterprise was a battleship in all but name and that the term "heavy cruiser" was more political. He also said that the Constitution class was a match for the Klingon D-7.

 

[The Wormhole]

When the Borg became a threat, they built the Defiant and intended to build an entire fleet.

But when they thought it became less of a threat, they just stopped working on the project and went back to the way things were.

It wasn't quite like that. A number of flaws popped up in the Defiant design, mainly it was so overpowered it nearly tore itself apart. When the Borg became less of an imminent threat, Starfleet saw no practical need in developing a ship which was too high maintenance.

Even though the Defiant class was temporarily suspended, Starfleet still continued development and production on other combat oriented starship classes, such as the Akira, Intrepid and Sovereign classes.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Are you really that obtuse?

The post, not the poster, please.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I just hope that in some future Trek production they show a group of Starfleet officers arguing about whether or not they are a military force.

I would love to see that. The fans would chew it up.Ironically, it would give discussion boards even more material to talk about.

I always felt that TNG played a little too heavy-handed with the "were not a military but we are" nonsense. Picard should have drilled the crew to be more responsive and better trained, in the hope that should push come to shove military action could be avoided. I think the in-universe explanation could simply be an evolution of the concept of military and war.

In that conversation, Riker said he preferred brains over brawn and it was a waste of effort to test combat skills.

It could be just his professional opinion, but it sounded a little extreme.

Does that mean during a war or battle he'll always get a chance to come up with some genius technological way to beat the enemy?

About 10 years later Starfleet had so few options they tricked the Romulans into entering the war.

It wasn't quite like that. A number of flaws popped up in the Defiant design, mainly it was so overpowered it nearly tore itself apart. When the Borg became less of an imminent threat, Starfleet saw no practical need in developing a ship which was too high maintenance.

That's my general view too. If it was dangerous they probably just gave up on it. That's reasonable.

But when you look at Sisko's statement another way-- where he mentions the Borg being less of a threat first, then the design flaw second, it gives off another meaning.

That the primary reason they stopped was because they thought the Borg was less of a threat.

And then the design flaws, which gave them all the reason to abandon the project and put resources back into their original passion; science and exploration.

But Obrien alone somehow seemed able to solve the problems in a relatively short time. Suggesting he was really putting effort to into it and it wasn't such an insurmountable problem.

I know it's just semantics, but it does look that way, especially when you watch that episode for the first time.