Okay, forgot about "Future Tense" (love that show). So, nothing of Daniels' was destroyed in "Shockwave," then?
Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?
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Okay, forgot about "Future Tense" (love that show). So, nothing of Daniels' was destroyed in "Shockwave," then?
Canon is everything that appears on screen or is heard, there's nothing flexible there. Subsequent writers can ignore what came before, but that doesn't change canon.
Example, Gary Mitchell put James R Kirk on Kirk's intended tombstone, Kirk himself never uses the initial R and it doesn't appear in his official records. But it's a matter of canon that Mitchell put a R on the tombstone.
For whatever reason.
Since he considered Kirk to be a bit of a serious type, maybe he was deliberately putting in an error, just to mess with him.
I've heard it suggested that Mitchell was trying to point out how much of a self-righteous douche he thought Kirk was and that James R Kirk was just meant to mean James Righteous Kirk.
I think it’s possible to, with the best intentions, have an organization that’s nominally dedicated to “peaceful exploration.” So long as such remains possible. It would be understood, however, that the prevailing political situation might force an emphasis upon fighting. And, so long as the hostilities continue, that’s where your resources are stuck. (Of course, using the stated mission to gain support for the unstated mission would always be a temptation.)
When the U.S. government was formed, they established a Department of War. After all, they’d just come through a war, and assumed that such would be an ongoing thing. Much later, they softened it a bit as regards the name, to “Department of Defense,” though its function remained the same.
Remember how George Orwell predicted that it would one day be a Ministry of Peace that was constantly occupied in waging war.
Thus do ideals give way to reality.
When the U.S. government was formed, they established a Department of War. After all, they’d just come through a war, and assumed that such would be an ongoing thing. Much later, they softened it a bit as regards the name, to “Department of Defense,” though its function remained the same.
Remember how George Orwell predicted that it would one day be a Ministry of Peace that was constantly occupied in waging war.
Thus do ideals give way to reality.
Well, the question has been going around for quite some time (I've got a fan reference book from '94 that asks the question). The fact that there seems to be conflicting evidence onscreen (Starfleet does military-style ops and things on one hand, but on the other hand is very definitively said to not be a military) doesn't help.
The Department of War was just what they called the department that controlled the Army, the name was borrowed from the British War Office. The Department of the Navy was a separate thing, equivalent to the British Admiralty. After WW2 they were combined (along with the newly independent Air Force) into the Department of Defense.
I hesitate to read six pages on this. To respond to the OP: we are brainwashed from birth that war is bad. Military exists to do war. True, in the British empire they also served as explorers. And they do space research (albeit with an eye towards war). But they EXIST for war. And "war is bad."
But Star Trek "GOOD"! Therefore starfleet cannot be associated with war, which is "bad." Never mind Kirk describes himself as a soldier, there was a big Dominion war fought by starfleet, etc., points I'm sure others have made anove.
But Star Trek "GOOD"! Therefore starfleet cannot be associated with war, which is "bad." Never mind Kirk describes himself as a soldier, there was a big Dominion war fought by starfleet, etc., points I'm sure others have made anove.
I sometimes think it was a case of humans being in denial about what Starfleet is.
The show seemed to present 24th century humans as very pacifist as result of their evolution, so the concept of military is backwards or bad to them.
Picard didnt even want to participate in battle exercises ordered by Starfleet.
Crusher seemed cranky and reluctanct about getting sickbay ready in case of casualties in Chain of Command.
Geordi wanted to think that an entire Cardassian fleet hiding in a nebula was there only for scientific research.
I'll bet the recruiting brochure was full of promises scientific exploration and such. attracting a lot of scientist types, mainly in it for science.
It appears to be just humans and Starfleet. The other peaceful cultures have no problem calling their defense organizations a military, like the Bajorans.
The show seemed to present 24th century humans as very pacifist as result of their evolution, so the concept of military is backwards or bad to them.
Picard didnt even want to participate in battle exercises ordered by Starfleet.
Crusher seemed cranky and reluctanct about getting sickbay ready in case of casualties in Chain of Command.
Geordi wanted to think that an entire Cardassian fleet hiding in a nebula was there only for scientific research.
I'll bet the recruiting brochure was full of promises scientific exploration and such. attracting a lot of scientist types, mainly in it for science.
It appears to be just humans and Starfleet. The other peaceful cultures have no problem calling their defense organizations a military, like the Bajorans.
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That last line was great. Just because a ship has weapons and if forced would be willing to use them doesn't make it a warship.
If something can be ignored without consequence, it doesn't matter.
This subject regularly pops up at least once a month here...the only subject that comes up even more is the "no money in the Federation" topic.
^ And Tuvix.
Mostly, yeah. Truth is, I've been curious why everyone goes out of their way to insist Starfleet isn't military for a while now, and the bit in Beyond was the motivator to start a thread.
If somehow (hypothetically) much of modern day Earth was unexplored, I could easily see the American military engaged in exploration
This episode is often used in the "ain't a military" side of the argument, but it's right there, Starfleet orders Picard to do it, and Starfleet sends out a tactical expert to assist.
If Starfleet isn't a military, is Starfleet Command and the rest of the fleet aware of this? Or is it Picard in his little bubble again.
Exactly, and given this, we might interpret that this is literally what happens within the fiction. Let's say it militarizes and demilitarizes as needed, assume that there are detailed regulations and procedures in place determining when and how this occurs (the complete details of which we'll likely never be fully privy to), and call it a day on this one. Starfleet can be a continuation of NASA in the unprecedented time of peace on Earth in which it was initially conceived and birthed and a fully-fledged spacegoing Navy of the Federation during the Dominion War; Kirk can be "a soldier, not a diplomat" when war with the Klingons is looming in "Errand Of Mercy" and "primarily an explorer" rather than a "military commander" after such tensions had died down by "Whom Gods Destroy"; there can be harmony between the stories that clearly portray SF as a military and those that explicitly claim it isn't one without there having to be agreement on the subject among their writers, and without us having to ignore any of them. And an endlessly recursive debate can end without either side having to be wrong!
To be strictly accurate to the terms used in this episode, in this particular circumstance Starfleet "requested" the simulation and the Enterprise's officers "decided" to "agree to" it. Not that I suggest they couldn't just as easily have been ordered to comply despite all "resistance" but in point of fact that's not what's said to have happened:
Kolrami: Captain Picard, it is my understanding that you initially resisted Starfleet's request for this simulation.
Picard: Yes.
Kolrami: May I know why?
Picard: Starfleet is not a military organization. Its purpose is exploration.
Kolrami: Then why am I here?
Picard: With the Borg threat, I decided that my officers and I needed to hone our tactical skills. In a crisis situation, it is prudent to have several options.
Riker: I prefer brains over brawn as well. I think it's a waste of effort to test our combat skills. It's a minor province in the makeup of a starship captain.
Kolrami: Your objection is noted. Let us hope your distaste for the exercise will not affect your strategic abilities.
Riker: Mister Kolrami, when I agree to do something. I do it.
I know, I know...po-tay-to, po-tah-to.
I'm not sure how much more effort I want to dedicate to rehashing points I already made so recently and at such length in this thread, in which IIRC both you and the OP here also participated, but I guess I'll see how I feel tomorrow...suffice it to say for the moment that there's a bit more to this than Picard being in his own "little bubble" of denial.
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Good points, particularly on the joint diplomat/soldier idea, but here's something interesting I got from that scene;
Picard resists the idea of a battle simulation because he feels Starfleet isn't the military. That's the actual reason he gave.
Suggesting that Starfleet shouldn't participate in any military activity, well, because it isn't one.
Except when the Borg, Romulans, Cardassians or Dominion attacks or does something, they're the ones that are called to defend the Federation.
So with one part saying we are explorers, and the other showing military behavior, we end up with this weird scenario: a scientist/explorer wants to join Starfleet and enjoy playing at military, without all the trappings of being on military. Getting to wear uniform with rank insignia, getting promotions, being called "Sir" or "Ma'am", being saluted to etc.
Except they're not the military?
PICARD: Starfleet is not a military organization. Its purpose is exploration.
KOLRAMI: Then why am I here?
PICARD: With the Borg threat, I decided that my officers and I needed to hone our tactical skills.
If Starfleet isn't a military organization, why would Picard worry about fighting (tactical skills) the Borg? Picard is contradicting his own previous statement with his next sentence. Starfleet isn't a exploration organization, not solely, and certainly not primarily. Exploration is what they do when something more important isn't going on. It's a side activity to make use of ships waiting to be used in their primary role of defense.
If a starship is required to transport a urgently needed lifesaving drug, will the captain refuse owing to currently being engaged in "exploration." If ordered on a diplomatic mission to prevent a war, wouldn't a starship would stop "exploring" immediately, because exploring isn't job one ... ever. If a Federation member were under attack, a starship drops any other activity to do it primary job.
Starfleet perform many jobs, and exploration is on the list, just not at the top of the list. Might not even be in the top ten.
Over the course of the various series, look how often a starship isn't exploring.
KOLRAMI: Then why am I here?
PICARD: With the Borg threat, I decided that my officers and I needed to hone our tactical skills.
If Starfleet isn't a military organization, why would Picard worry about fighting (tactical skills) the Borg? Picard is contradicting his own previous statement with his next sentence. Starfleet isn't a exploration organization, not solely, and certainly not primarily. Exploration is what they do when something more important isn't going on. It's a side activity to make use of ships waiting to be used in their primary role of defense.
If a starship is required to transport a urgently needed lifesaving drug, will the captain refuse owing to currently being engaged in "exploration." If ordered on a diplomatic mission to prevent a war, wouldn't a starship would stop "exploring" immediately, because exploring isn't job one ... ever. If a Federation member were under attack, a starship drops any other activity to do it primary job.
Starfleet perform many jobs, and exploration is on the list, just not at the top of the list. Might not even be in the top ten.
Over the course of the various series, look how often a starship isn't exploring.
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