Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[1001001]

Much the way Stafleet is not considered part of the military.

That particular convention changed for naval forces during the early 19th century when it became impossible to ignore the fact that professional military sailors were always going to be superior to -- for lack of a better term -- armed maritime volunteers.

Starfleet hasn't gone through a similar transformation to "professional combat service." Far from it, they've actually figured out that their skill as scientists and engineers gives them the advantage over other forces that specialize primarily in combat. Which makes a certain amount of sense; a crew of humans is never going to out-fight the Klingons in a military struggle, but they can out-think and out-tech them any day of the week.


Just like the word "navy" literally means "group of large boats."

The Enterprise may sometimes behave like a submarine (much to Scotty's chagrin) but it is not a boat.

I'm basing it on the fact that the primary purpose of Starfleet, as stated over and over again in every series, is space exploration and diplomatic contact. Military and law enforcement are secondary roles.


The Federation is an unusual organization.

So there's no real call for the insistence that a non-military organization can fill a military role when it needs to. We both know that, REALISTICALLY, this would not actually work as such an organization would lack the clarity of purpose and the necessary ruthlessness to actually participate in a war. The fact that Starfleet is not a military organization is therefore UNREALISTIC on a lot of levels, but no more so than warp drive, transporters and deflector shields creating a thin bubble of energy that depletes by percentages whenever they're hit.


And NASA is not a military organization. See how that works?

@The Old Mixer already reminded you not to do this. Please consolidate your replies into one post.

 

[Tenacity]

Police officers don't fight foreign wars.

Except when they do.

How is your example of Iraqi police in a Iraqi city a example of police fighting a foreign war?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The Secret Service was originally created to investigate counterfeit currency and financial fraud and had a secondary duty in investigating what we would call "money laundering." It ORIGINALLY was a law enforcement agency focused on the manipulation of currency, which in 1865 would have been a pretty serious issue right after the civil war.

All true. So, are you now reversing your previous position that only DoJ sub-agencies are 'law-enforcement'? Because the USSS was historically Treasury - and still does a lot of work for them - and is now DHS, it has never been DoJ.

Note that the FBI is said to have law enforcement duties but is not considered a law enforcement agency. Your own link describes it as a "National Security Organization", which is something distinct from both military and law enforcement agencies but also doesn't count as a "civilian service" because its agents are armed and are authorized to kill people under certain circumstances.

The FBI is a "national security organisation" because investigates crime and some other activities across the nation unlike say Indian reservation police within their reservation, park rangers who police their parks and larger agencies like the NYPD and LAPD police their cities, it's not a distinct category as the Bureau's remit includes terrorism, counterintelligence, cyber crime, public corruption, protection of civil rights, organised crime, white-collar crime, violent crime and WMDs (shared with ATF) per https://www.fbi.gov/investigate.

Therefore, Starfleet - regardless of it's primary purpose - is per your own explaination law enforcement (if it isn't military) as it's members "are armed and authorised to kill people under certain circumstances". Civilian research/diplomatic agencies (NOAA, FEMA, CDC) rarely arm their personnel and even when they do it's the security guards only (not the case with Starfleet) and non-law enforcement intelligence agencies (like the CIA or NSA) have no "power of arrest" in the offical sense.

BTW,

 

[suarezguy]

BTW, given the earlier criticism that Crusher was unprofessional and/or incompetent for not having sickbay ready for mass casualties, in "Call to Arms," Bashir says, on a battle being expected very soon, "I'd better go and get the Infirmary ready."
Either the station is usually much safer, Crusher and Bashir are both slackers or it's not practical or feasible to have them ready for mass casualties all the time.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

BTW, given the earlier criticism that Crusher was unprofessional and/or incompetent for not having sickbay ready for mass casualties, in "Call to Arms," Bashir says, on a battle being expected very soon, "I'd better go and get the Infirmary ready."
Either the station is usually much safer, Crusher and Bashir are both slackers or it's not practical or feasible to have them ready for mass casualties all the time.

The last one makes sense to me, a general 'examination room' isn't the same as a surgical suite and normal 'sickbay operations' would seem to favour the former.

 

[The Wormhole]

BTW, given the earlier criticism that Crusher was unprofessional and/or incompetent for not having sickbay ready for mass casualties, in "Call to Arms," Bashir says, on a battle being expected very soon, "I'd better go and get the Infirmary ready."
Either the station is usually much safer, Crusher and Bashir are both slackers or it's not practical or feasible to have them ready for mass casualties all the time.

The issue wasn't the fact that sickbay isn't ready 24/7 for mass casualties at the drop of a hat, it's the fact that Crusher found the idea that sickbay should be ready for casualties abhorrent. That's like Worf taking issue with his security officers being required to deal with intruders, or Geordi complaining about having to repair their ship. It's in the fucking job description, you don't like that, rethink you're career.

 

[Prax]

The FBI are Federal cops. They always have been. They investigate crimes and make arrests.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

How is your example of Iraqi police in a Iraqi city a example of police fighting a foreign war?

That is a distinction without a difference. A heavily armed force using military weapons and with a military-style command structure is not part of the military -- even if it participates in a war -- if the government says it's not.

All true. So, are you now reversing your previous position that only DoJ sub-agencies are 'law-enforcement'?

No, my position was that "law enforcement agencies" are defined by legal definition related to their primary function and statutory powers. You can give law enforcement powers to just about anyone, but that doesn't make them law enforcement agencies unless that is their primary function.

Incidentally, the Secret Service's primary function remains "Financial Crimes" despite this not being the function with which it is most widely associated. It would surprise many to know that the protection of politicians and VIPs from assassination attempts is NOT strictly speaking their primary function, as much larger portion of the Secret Service is devoted to investigating financial crimes than its protection mission.

So it's another interesting datapoint on how an organization's primary mission can differ substantially from its most visible mission role, and vice versa.

The FBI is a "national security organisation" because investigates crime and some other activities across the nation unlike say Indian reservation police within their reservation, park rangers who police their parks and larger agencies like the NYPD and LAPD police their cities, it's not a distinct category as the Bureau's remit includes terrorism, counterintelligence, cyber crime, public corruption, protection of civil rights, organised crime, white-collar crime, violent crime and WMDs (shared with ATF) per https://www.fbi.gov/investigate.

Sure, but the FBI's purview includes surveillance and domestic intelligence in support not only of law enforcement but also of counter-terrorism efforts, scientific research, and domestic counter-espionage efforts. Domestic Intelligence covers a lot of ground, but calling that "law enforcement" is a drastic over-simplification.

Therefore, Starfleet - regardless of it's primary purpose - is per your own explaination law enforcement

Incorrect. Starfleet is a scientific research and diplomatic organization with a military and law enforcement role.

 

[LJones41]

That description sounds like the Trek franchise is splitting hairs.

I get the feeling that many want to believe that the Federation (and especially humanity) has evolved beyond the need for a traditional military force that they are willing to believe that Starfleet is not military.

 

[Tenacity]

That is a distinction without a difference.

No, you used the Iraqi police inside their own country as an example of police fighting foreign wars, your example makes no sense.

The Iraqi police were not in a foreign country.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Incorrect. Starfleet is a scientific research and diplomatic organization with a military and law enforcement role.

No-one, including me, is arguing that Starfleet isn't a scientific research and diplomatic organisation, however in order to credibly and legally fill all those roles, Starfleet must not be a civilian agency (and indeed it has been made clear that it is not) so the question becomes is it military (combat-centric) or security/law enforcement (used for other than armed combat). I'm increasingly persuaded that Starfleet is mostly the latter rather than the former but to say that "secondary" roles don't determine part of an organisations identity seems ridiculous to me (for example, military police are both military and police and can be used in either role, Army Corps of Engineers are primarily engineers, but I doubt anyone would consider them anything other than soldiers in the general sense).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The issue wasn't the fact that sickbay isn't ready 24/7 for mass casualties at the drop of a hat, it's the fact that Crusher found the idea that sickbay should be ready for casualties abhorrent. That's like Worf taking issue with his security officers being required to deal with intruders, or Geordi complaining about having to repair their ship. It's in the fucking job description, you don't like that, rethink you're career.

Actually, it's not quite as simple as you're making out. This is obvious if you consider the whole scene:

[Observation lounge]


JELLICO: Starfleet now believes the Cardassians are preparing to invade Minos Korva. I'm convinced their invasion fleet is hiding in the McAllister Nebula. I intend to hit them before they leave it.
LAFORGE: Captain, what if you're wrong? What if the Cardassians are in that nebula to conduct scientific research?
JELLICO: You'd have to have some pretty good evidence to convince me of that.
CRUSHER: You're still gambling hundreds of lives.
JELLICO: This discussion is moot. The plan has been approved and we are going ahead. Mister Data, by your calculations, how long could the Cardassian ships stay in the nebula?
DATA: In seventeen hours their hull degradation will reach dangerous levels. They will have to leave before that.
JELLICO: All right. Worf, prepare a series of five hundred antimatter mines with magnetic targeting capabilities.
WORF: Aye, sir.
JELLICO: Geordi, we're going to need a shuttle specially outfitted to operate in the nebula by fourteen hundred hours. Beverly, you'll need to
CRUSHER: Have Sickbay ready for the casualties you're about to send me.
JELLICO: That's right. Dismissed.

Doctor Crusher believes that Jellico, by his militaristic against the Cardassians, is risking "hundreds of lives" which could translate into her and her staff having to treat a lot of casualties (likely mostly trauma which is time and manpower intensive) at once rather than small numbers of patients (probably mostly illness or minor injury, treatable by one person quickly) as is usual. While I'm not sure of the canonicity, it's generally accepted that the E-D had a medical staff of about two dozen but only five doctors at most, of which maybe two - including Crusher - would be on-duty at all times. My read of her dialogue is that she believes (like Picard would have) that there were other options with less risk of 'loss of life' and she's annoyed that she now has to bring in her other staff (many of which are probably asleep) to prepare for mass casualties. She's annoyed with Jellico, not the need to 'do her job'.

 

[fireproof78]

My only question is that Beverly seemed more than ready to deal with other crises in other episodes, including anticipating casualties, having her staff preparing medical kits, burn kits, everything. So, it feels a bit inconsistent with how she has responded in the past, at least to me.

 

[The Wormhole]

In TWOK McCoy took it upon himself to prepare sickbay even when all they were doing was visiting Regula to find out why they had gone silent. Besides which, getting annoyed at Jellico at that point is unprofessional, he's acting under Starfleet orders. No one ever glared at Picard for sending the Enterprise into battle under Starfleet orders. The crew just had an axe to grind with Jellico.

 

[psCargile]

What was your job in the Air Force?

Automatic Flight Controls, and instruments specialist, F-15 (C, D, and E models).

Some shows I watched growing up.
BSG: military
Starblazers: military
Macros/Robotec: military
Space 1999: not military
Buck Rogers: military

 

[Tenacity]

Doctor Crusher believes that Jellico, by his militaristic against the Cardassians ...

Why "militaristic?'

Jellico didn't attach mines to the Cardassian starships and detonate them as soon as the shuttle was clear, he used them as barganing chips to malnpulate the Cardassians to do what he wanted, and into releasing Picard.

But at the same time he likely was aware that not all plans go the way you anticipate so he prepared the ship for battle.

He didn't like going to Riker to pilot the shuttle, but he was a experienced commander and not a fool. So he went to Riker.

Not having Crusher prep sickbay would have been foolish, again Jellico wasn't a fool.

 

[Ithekro]

Crusher just doesn't like his plan. Too high a risk at starting a war and risking too many lives. Being a doctor isn't her problem, she'll put anyone back together again. Her problem is this new CO that seems hell bent to start up a new war when she doesn't believe it to be the wise course of action, as it endangers lives she doesn't think need endangering.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Crusher just doesn't like his plan. Too high a risk at starting a war and risking too many lives. Being a doctor isn't her problem, she'll put anyone back together again. Her problem is this new CO that seems hell bent to start up a new war when she doesn't believe it to be the wise course of action, as it endangers lives she doesn't think need endangering.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say, but you said it better.

 

[psCargile]

And that is the problem with having families on a starship: putting innocent lives in danger. Is this the behavior of a military minded organization? Not only have you joined Starfleet, protector of worlds, to put your life at risk for security and peace, but to put the lives of your loved one at risk too. Lol.

 

[Prax]

I believe that was only the Enterprise D, and possibly the few other Galaxy class ships. Even idealistic Picard thinks it's an awful idea. And indeed, it was quickly abandoned. Voyager had no families but was also built for going into deep space for long periods. The Enterprise from the TNG movies also abandoned the idea of families threat, as did every other new starship seen on screen(Like the Promethius)

The Ent. D was introduced as a new type of Starship. One that was conceived as a "city in space" that could be gone for years. It's sort of comparable to Navy Base + Navy Vessel and can separate to protect the families that live on the "base" half. And when it separates, one crew flies the city to safety, while another crew uses the Battle Bridge to engage whatever the threat.

So it's a practice that was experimented with for <10 years out of 200.