There's a word for that. It's called an astronaut.
Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?
- Thread starter The Wormhole
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There's a word for that. It's called an astronaut.
Most of which - particularly the ones that operate the ship - have been active duty or former military. Most civilian astronauts IFAIK have been mission specialists.
I really don't get the attitude that keeps popping up in these discussions that "it's not accurate to a military, and therefore not a military." The real important thing to remember that as a TV show, realism takes a backseat, and indeed much of the science in Star Trek is downright atrocious. But regardless, I can cite many TV shows, movies, and other works of fiction that are set in actual militaries that have the same lax attitude towards martial life and discipline as Star Trek does. Stargate has the galaxy being explored by the USAF, and although the Stargate franchise gets much right, and has been recognized it, much is also wrong. John Sheppard's hairstyle, for example is in violation of actual USAF regulations. There's also a novel series I read set on a US Navy destroyer set in WWII featuring a character who habitually abandons his post during combat, which gets tolerated by everyone, even the captain. Fiction is meant to entertain, not be a picture perfect reflection of reality. So Starfleet not being an accurate take on the military is not a convincing enough argument for it not being a military.
Despite being completely out of left field and not particularly relevant, this post still feels right for this thread.
While your posts have horrible spelling in general, this one is really getting to me. They're called MACOs, stop calling them macros. There's no r.
Indeed, nearly every astronaut of historical note was former military or active duty. John Glenn, Neil Armstrong, Chris Hadfield, Yuri Gagarin, many more I'm obviously forgetting. NASA itself may not be a military organization, but the military is very much involved in modern space exploration.
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Hell, I'd swap this thread for a good BERMAN AND BRAGA ARE TEH SUX!!!1!1!1!! thread in a cold second. Change of pace.
Astronauts? On some kind of star trek?
Maybe that why NASA isn't sent to fight wars .... like Starfleet is.
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That was my whole point. Glad you got it.
Oh yes. And it took me back to a time fifteen years ago when that was what got posted on a regular basis as a matter of course. Ah, nostalgia.
They have law enforcement duties as well as military duties, but Starfleet is not a law enforcement agency either.
"Civilian" is meant to distinguish private citizens under civilian law from a member of a government-affiliated armed service. Incidentally, this is also the difference between, say, the CIA and or various PMCs from military personnel.
Except when they do.
See these guys with RPGs and light machineguns in the streets of Mosul? Would it shock you to learn that these men are not actually part of Iraq's military, and that the Iraqi Federal Police are NOT considered to be, strictly speaking, a military organization?
In the same way that NASA isn't a space navy.
Given that Starfleet are specifically shown as arresting and trying both Starfleet personnel and civilians and unlike with 'Starfleet is not a military' no-one has ever claimed they aren't law enforcement in-universe I'm not sure what you're basing that on.
Armed services are usually classed as either 'military' or 'law enforcement' or both (see US Coast Guard). Civilian uniformed agencies like NASA, NOAA, PHS in the US or HM Coastguard or Border Force in the UK (for example) are unarmed and are rarely if ever involved in combat.
Much the way Stafleet is not considered part of the military.
That particular convention changed for naval forces during the early 19th century when it became impossible to ignore the fact that professional military sailors were always going to be superior to -- for lack of a better term -- armed maritime volunteers.
Starfleet hasn't gone through a similar transformation to "professional combat service." Far from it, they've actually figured out that their skill as scientists and engineers gives them the advantage over other forces that specialize primarily in combat. Which makes a certain amount of sense; a crew of humans is never going to out-fight the Klingons in a military struggle, but they can out-think and out-tech them any day of the week.
Just like the word "navy" literally means "group of large boats."
The Enterprise may sometimes behave like a submarine (much to Scotty's chagrin) but it is not a boat.
I'm basing it on the fact that the primary purpose of Starfleet, as stated over and over again in every series, is space exploration and diplomatic contact. Military and law enforcement are secondary roles.
The Federation is an unusual organization.
So there's no real call for the insistence that a non-military organization can fill a military role when it needs to. We both know that, REALISTICALLY, this would not actually work as such an organization would lack the clarity of purpose and the necessary ruthlessness to actually participate in a war. The fact that Starfleet is not a military organization is therefore UNREALISTIC on a lot of levels, but no more so than warp drive, transporters and deflector shields creating a thin bubble of energy that depletes by percentages whenever they're hit.
And NASA is not a military organization. See how that works?
Uh, any goverment agency with powers of arrest is defined as law enforcement, even if they have other duties either primarily or secondarily, in any jurdisdiction that I am aware of in the RW.
For instance, park rangers are primarily conservationists, educators, EMS/firefighters and maintenance workers, but many of them have power of arrest and are deemed 'law enforcement'.
No, because military officers have the power to do that too. As do private security guards and even bounty hunters under some circumstances.
The FBI is technically considered an intelligence agency; the most you can say is that it is a dual-purpose organization that is both domestic intelligence AND law enforcement, but the FBI's primary function -- what they spend most of their resources on -- actually IS domestic intelligence.
The thing is, that comes down to legal definitions there too: the FBI is considered to be part of the law enforcement service because they answer to the Department of Justice. If they did not -- as the Department of Homeland Security does not -- then they would not be considered a law enforcement agency even if they had the power to investigate and arrest suspected terrorists.
EMS/firefighters with the power of arrest are not, AFAIK, considered to be "law enforcement" or "peace officers" or other similar term. This is mainly because there is only a limited number of laws they can actually arrest you FOR. Fire marshals, for example, can arrest attempted arsonists in pretty much any jurisdiction and can also issue fines for violation of the fire code (not having fire extinguishers or sprinkler systems working or having fire hazards lying around).
Private Security guards and bounty hunters are not "goverment agencies", I will concede that 'power of arrest' doesn't prove against "is a military".
(from fbi.gov)
About
Today’s FBI is an intelligence-driven and threat-focused national security organization with both intelligence and law enforcement responsibilities that is staffed by a dedicated cadre of more than 30,000 agents, analysts, and other professionals who work around the clock and across the globe to protect the U.S. from terrorism, espionage, cyber attacks, and major criminal threats, and to provide its many partners with services, support, training, and leadership.
(from secretservice.gov)
History
The U.S. Secret Service has grown from a small bureau staffed by a few operatives in 1865, to a law enforcement organization of nearly 7,000 employees worldwide. Today, the U.S. Secret Service fights crime on a global scale through its field offices located in the United States, Canada, Mexico, South America, Europe, Africa and Asia. The agency works closely with local, state and federal law enforcement organizations. These entities are valued partners of the Secret Service, and they are integral to the agency’s investigative and protective endeavors.
The FBI is part of DoJ, the USSS is not, nor have they ever been so, however both are considered 'law enforcement' per their own mission statements. There are also 'law enforcement agencies' within Argiculture, Commerce, Energy, Health and Human Services, Homeland Security, Interior, State, Transportation, Treasury, even Veteran Affairs, Congress and other miscelleanous sub-Cabinet groups.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_law_enforcement_in_the_United_States
The Secret Service was originally created to investigate counterfeit currency and financial fraud and had a secondary duty in investigating what we would call "money laundering." It ORIGINALLY was a law enforcement agency focused on the manipulation of currency, which in 1865 would have been a pretty serious issue right after the civil war.
Note that the FBI is said to have law enforcement duties but is not considered a law enforcement agency. Your own link describes it as a "National Security Organization", which is something distinct from both military and law enforcement agencies but also doesn't count as a "civilian service" because its agents are armed and are authorized to kill people under certain circumstances.
The parallel to Starfleet is nearly perfect. It has secondary duties that do not actually define the organization's PURPOSE, either operationally or historically. Starfleet is not a military organization, or a law enforcement agency, or a national security organization. Starfleet is a scientific research and diplomatic body. Although some of its duties include military missions and law enforcement duties, the purpose of Starfleet vessels is to expand the body of Federation knowledge.
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