Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[Tenacity]

How many non military or non quasi-military or non paramilitary organizations bear arms, have ranks, uniforms, and their officers are court-martialed by JAG for disobeying orders?

Police officers can face a board of review and potentially lose their jobs. But if they are facing criminal charges with the chance of being put in confinement, this isn't done internally inside the police department. They go to a civilian court.

Starfleet has it's own military courts.

 

[jaime]

How many non military or non quasi-military or non paramilitary organizations bear arms, have ranks, uniforms, and their officers are court-martialed by JAG for disobeying orders?

Probably none in the twentieth and twenty-first century so far. How many militaries have half human officers, android officers, regularly engage in faster than light manuvres and have faster than light communication arrays? Transport interplanetary colonists? How many militaries explore space?

 

[jaime]

Police officers can face a board of review and potentially lose their jobs. But if they are facing criminal charges with the chance of being put in confinement, this isn't done internally inside the police department. They go to a civilian court.

Starfleet has it's own military courts.

It's woolly. There are a number of episodes where Starfleet officers are tried in various civilian courts (Riker, Dax and O'Brien off the top of my head.) which if nothing else makes it shakes which military it's based on. Some don't allow prosecution of its officers in civilian courts where officers are accused of a crime at all. Weren't a few of the 'Starfleet courts' basically because that's all that was available at short notice? Measure of a Man was like that I think.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Probably none in the twentieth and twenty-first century so far. How many militaries have half human officers, android officers, regularly engage in faster than light manuvres and have faster than light communication arrays? Transport interplanetary colonists? How many militaries explore space?

In other words Starfleet is military but it is the 23rd and 24th century definition of military.

Modern armies don't have horses, cannons and wooden warships anymore either. Does that make them non military? Or does it make the Union Army non military because it didn't have airplanes and tanks?

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Weren't a few of the 'Starfleet courts' basically because that's all that was available at short notice? Measure of a Man was like that I think.

First time I've heard of a "Starfleet court". In all instances it was called Court Martial, as in martial court, as in military trial.

 

[jaime]

In other words Starfleet is military but it is the 23rd and 24th century definition of military.

Modern armies don't have horses, cannons and wooden warships anymore either. Does that make them non military? Or does it make the Union Army non military because it didn't have airplanes and tanks?

No...in other words, "mankind has evolved" . The important functional parts of the job of a military (and accepting that the idea of a standing armed force in peacetime is a relatively modern invention in the west.) are now done by an organisation that is non military. (Starfleet probably doesn't have infantry, but that's a whole different argument about the military aspects of Trek and it's setting.) Everything else is done away with...there's no contradiction between Picard 'We are not soldiers' and Picard 'my granddaddy was at Waterloo you know!' because the military no longer exists. It's an inaccurate anachronism, like calling a series available for streaming a 'box set' despite it no longer having a box. Starfleet is not a military, despite having some of the same functions. The humanitarian, engineering, basically most non-combat roles, that the military, to its credit, undertake today are not what militaries were invented for. They themselves are in the process of becoming something else. Starfleet was invented for exploration...that's its purpose. It's defensive role is a side effect of its own evolution.

 

[jaime]

First time I've heard of a "Starfleet court". In all instances it was called Court Martial, as in martial court, as in military trial.

I am shorthanding it in the context of Trek...Measure of a Man was not a court martial.

 

[Tenacity]

Starfleet probably doesn't have infantry

Miles O'Brien was assigned to the infantry at one point .

I am shorthanding it in the context of Trek...Measure of a Man was not a court martial.

It was a military court of inquiry.

The JAG office was just getting established and was short handed, but it was a military court, and there was a official ruling.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Starfleet probably doesn't have infantry

Yes it does.

Starfleet was invented for exploration...that's its purpose

Starfleet was invented for exploration AND defense of the Federation... thus its purpose is dual.

 

[jaime]

Yes it does.

Starfleet was invented for exploration AND defense of the Federation... thus its purpose is dual.

Kirk wore the same uniform, flew in the same shuttle, held the same weapons.....does that make him a colonel now? I actually like Star Trek V, but using that scene with a security team as a support for a standing infantry is....tenuous. Not as tenuous as making them Macos, but tenuous.
When the NX-01 went out into the black, what was its purpose? Defence or exploration? Not it's later Duties...the mission it was built for?

 

[jaime]

Miles O'Brien was assigned to the infantry at one point .

It was a military court of inquiry.

The JAG office was just getting established and was short handed, but it was a military court, and there was a official ruling.

Hence starfleet court. I am not saying Star Trek didn't have court martial, I am saying not every Starfleet court was a court martial. Hence the shorthand.

Was it stated he served in the infantry? Or did he refer to himself as an infantryman? There's a radical difference between the two. I am not familiar with a scene that does either, but am not saying it doesn't exist.

 

[Ithekro]

Yes it does.

Starfleet was invented for exploration AND defense of the Federation... thus its purpose is dual.

I am pretty sure those are red shirts in an era when everyone wears red. So Enterprise's Security Field outfits, which the landing party also is wearing...including the ship's chief medical officer and ship's captain.

In other words Starfleet is military but it is the 23rd and 24th century definition of military.

No, it means that by at least the 24h century the meaning the word "military" means something different to the point where a senior Captain and First Officer of one of the newest starships in the fleet can say that Starfleet is not a military in a matter of fact fashion. Something changed between now and then that makes Starfleet not a military to people living in that century, and to those in the alternate 23rd century.

It is also possible that Starfleet goes in and out of being the military over time. When the Klingons are more or less trying to start something with the Federation before the Organian Peace Treaty, and again around the time of TWOK to TUC, Starfleet functions more like a military and those in it don't express that they are not military. Nor do they seem to do so during the Dominion War, though Picard seems to wax about they use to be explorers. However during the period after the Organian Peace Treaty and in the period after the Khitomer Treaty from TUC Starfleet seems to put aside the role of being the military and define themselves and no being the military. Also during Archer's era it seems Starfleet was also not considered the military, as Earth has forces for that, with the MACOs being one example, with the Royal Navy being another.

It would seem that Starfleet may not be the military unless drafted into that business by outside forces. It might be a charter clause that makes Starfleet subject to whatever passes for the Federation's military, and over time whatever body that is (be it Section 31 related or not) tends to operate like Starfleet because it is easier to integrate during emergencies. It might also explain where all those other starships that seem more combat designed came from even with their older registry numbers (the Akiras, Sabers, Norways, and Steamrunners). Ships that never seemed to appear at all until the Federation was gearing up for a war it knew was coming. Starfleet didn't switch over to the grey uniforms until it was fairly obvious that their would be war with the Dominion.

We still don't know what the guys on Ajilon Prime were that were fighting the Klingons. Their uniforms are quite different from anything before or after.

 

[Nyotarules]

If the people who wrote that don't know the difference between Starfleet and the Federation, then I'm not going to take their word for what either is.

The people who wrote that had Scotty insist Starfleet wasn't a military..twice. Either reboot Scotty joined the wrong organisation or someone somewhere does not have a clue about who fights the Federations battles. It ain't the French Foreign Legion.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Kirk wore the same uniform, flew in the same shuttle, held the same weapons.....

That actually proves that the assault ground forces (AKA Marines) used in Star Trek V are part of Starfleet and not a different Federation "Defense Force".

does that make him a colonel now?

Actually we have seen a Starfleet Colonel. Remember Colonel West? Guess what, he was wearing a regular Starfleet uniform.

When the NX-01 went out into the black, what was its purpose? Defence or exploration? Not it's later Duties...the mission it was built for?

We are discussing the UFP Starfleet here, not Earth Starfleet.

 

[Nyotarules]

Marcus isn't a Starfleet officer, so his opinion may not be accurate and in fact contradicts Picard in "Peak Performance" (TNG), who firmly says that Starfleet is not a military organization. Picard has been a life-long member of Starfleet and would know exactly what job he has.

(Incidentally, that's why some of us are "resistant" to the "Starfleet is a military" theory; it been canonically stated not be one on a consistent basis -- even the reboots got this right. The question has been answered, very specifically, and the franchise has not changed that answer; the case was closed a long time ago. Honestly, I'm a little surprised that there's so much resistance to the idea of Starfleet not being a military. I mean, why is it so important that the theory is proven right?)

Because the 'oh so not military' Starfleet acts just like a military organisation. Actions speak louder than dodgy scripts. Picard's words contradicts his own career.

 

[Ithekro]

The people who wrote that had Scotty insist Starfleet wasn't a military..twice. Either reboot Scotty joined the wrong organisation or someone somewhere does not have a clue about who fights the Federations battles. It ain't the French Foreign Legion.

Military's don't promote trainees to command of a large ship on their first day of active duty.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

No, it means that by at least the 24h century the meaning the word "military" means something different to the point where a senior Captain and First Officer of one of the newest starships in the fleet can say that Starfleet is not a military in a matter of fact fashion. Something changed between now and then that makes Starfleet not a military to people living in that century, and to those in the alternate 23rd century.

SPOCK: …Last month, at the behest of the Vulcan Ambassador I opened a dialogue with Gorkon, Chancellor of the Klingon High Council. He proposes to commence negotiations at once.
CARTWRIGHT: Negotiations for what?
SPOCK: The dismantling of our space stations and starbases along the Neutral Zone, an end to almost seventy years of unremitting hostility with the Klingons, which the Klingons can no longer afford.
MILITARY AIDE: Bill, are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?
C in C: I'm sure that our exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected, Captain, but...
CARTWRIGHT: I must protest. To offer the Klingons a safe haven within Federation space is suicide. Klingons would become the alien trash of the galaxy. And if we dismantle the fleet, we'd be defenceless before an aggressive species with a foothold on our territory. The opportunity here is to bring them to their knees. Then we'll be in a far better position to dictate terms.


I don't know about you, but to me that sounds like military brass talking and actually protesting the prospect of stopping to provide defense for the Federation. It also clearly states that Starfleet has a defensive (i.e. military) mission and it's starships, space stations and starbases are part of that.

 

[Nyotarules]

Military's don't promote trainees to command of a large ship on their first day of active duty.

They do when the script demands it. They also have a hierarchical chain of command using Naval terms from GB and USA.Who else does that? When I go to work I don't call my boss Captain or Admiral or Commander. And we are not expected to defend the UK or Earth from all enemies foreign and domestic. Because we are not a military organisation.
Even NASA with its rank system is not expected to defend the USA.

 

[Ithekro]

SPOCK: …Last month, at the behest of the Vulcan Ambassador I opened a dialogue with Gorkon, Chancellor of the Klingon High Council. He proposes to commence negotiations at once.
CARTWRIGHT: Negotiations for what?
SPOCK: The dismantling of our space stations and starbases along the Neutral Zone, an end to almost seventy years of unremitting hostility with the Klingons, which the Klingons can no longer afford.
MILITARY AIDE: Bill, are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?
C in C: I'm sure that our exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected, Captain, but...
CARTWRIGHT: I must protest. To offer the Klingons a safe haven within Federation space is suicide. Klingons would become the alien trash of the galaxy. And if we dismantle the fleet, we'd be defenceless before an aggressive species with a foothold on our territory. The opportunity here is to bring them to their knees. Then we'll be in a far better position to dictate terms.


I don't know about you, but to me that sounds like military brass talking and actually protesting the prospect of stopping to provide defense for the Federation. It also clearly states that Starfleet has a defensive (i.e. military) mission and it's starships, space stations and starbases are part of that.

Which is why I said the 24th century and specifically mentioned that Starfleet seems to have periods were they are either more military-like or have been absorbed by the Federation military due to an ongoing problem. Specifically in the time from of TWOK to TUC (the red uniform movie era), the much more aggressive Klingon Empire seemingly without the Organian Peace Treaty being worth much of a damn anymore.

After the Khitomer Accords, and possibly this dismantling, we have Starfleet that is no longer the military of the Federation. That is either someone else's job, or a job that is unfilled because the Federation believed it doesn't need a military.

 

[jaime]

That actually proves that the assault ground forces (AKA Marines) used in Star Trek V are part of Starfleet and not a different Federation "Defense Force".



Actually we have seen a Starfleet Colonel. Remember Colonel West? Guess what, he was wearing a regular Starfleet uniform.

We are discussing the UFP Starfleet here, not Earth Starfleet.

I don't listen to hip hop. Or in this case..deleted scenes that make a convoluted plot even more so. Put back in I grant you, but this the same scene where a Romulan ambassador consults on a federation rescue plan, the plans for which are then in the background when the chancellor of the Klingon empire makes a video call. The best you can hope is maybe they were going for a subtle Garak measures Sisko moment. (Or...as is very much then case....Meyer tends to ignore anything and everything about Trek if it gets in the way of his sailboat man of action stories. VI in particular doesn't stand up very well to scrutiny. II is better.)

UFP Starfleet as a military force is an interesting distinction to make....look at the resistance to a standing EU military to see why an organisation like the federation might not want one, or certainly would want to have it as subtley as possible.