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Why is the UFP so repulsive in Star Trek Picard?

Garak234

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
can think of examples and instances but I will be succinct and concise what about the UFP in Star Trek Picard elicits such disgust in so many people and are we right? is the UFP really have a mile wide gap between it's image and it's practice(which is even more important in the UFP then in most states) by Picard? Does Picard era Starfleet deserve it's name? The thing about PIC UFP is that it is hard to pinpoint what feels rotten about the UFP but it feels rotten. This was deliberate in the series, but is the theme exaggerated in the series? Is it just Picard's beliefs that impact the viewers against the UFP in terms of in universe reliable sources? There are other witnesses to the UFP's rot but each one could have their own post and have had their own post before because their claims in so far as they relate to the rotting core of the UFP (the show uses these characters that way) are disputable (Rios, Seven of Nine, Elnor, Hugh, Soji, Thaddeus Riker ect)
 
Starfleet is portrayed in a negative light (although not as negative as you’re making it sound) because one of the plot points of the show is that Picard feels that they betrayed him and the Romulans for not providing more help with the evacuation once the rescue fleet was destroyed. We’re supposed to side with Picard, because he’s the star of the show, so naturally they’d show Starfleet as the ‘bad guys’ in this scenario. It also didn’t help that Starfleet was infiltrated by the Zhat Vash, or that Picard bad-mouthed them on live television after having been egged on by the reporter.

BTW, who are all these people you say were ‘disgusted’ by Starfleet? Besides yourself, that is.
 
Starfleet being shown unsavory, when it's not the main crew, is something that's been done since "Court Martial" in TOS, when Commodore Stone wanted to throw Kirk under the bus and make him take a ground assignment. "That's the way my report will read if you cooperate." In TSFS, anyone who wasn't part of the Enterprise Family was portrayed as incompetent, not "getting it", or an asshole.

That's not even getting into the series of "Badmirals" on TNG and DS9, or assholes from outside the main casts.

EDITED TO ADD: Plus, to be brutally honest, I don't think Picard would be happy with a lot of things Starfleet was doing as far back as the Dominion War. That Starfleet wasn't Picard's Starfleet. He stuck around for an additional 10 years because maybe he thought he could change things for the better... but it finally got to be too much for him and when it came to the test, when he threatened to resign, they basically told him "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." It was over a decade in the making by the time it actually happened.
 
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Even on TNG Jean-Luc was often at odds with Starfleet. It’s nothing new that his ideals often don’t match those of Starfleet Command and that he clashed with the brass on regular occasions. The only reason why quite a few people mistakenly seem to think that he and Starfleet are on some high and mighty same level of “we reach” is because TNG is episodic where decisions rarely have any direct consequences (which means you can have a badmiral of the week who will vanish at the end of the episode and be forgotten the next time) and, a more in-universe reason, the Enterprise-D is far away from Starfleet Command and Jean-Luc rarely has to walk into the building and argue with the brass directly, he still has a certain leeway. Still doesn’t mean everything is peachy between him and Command. I can very well imagine that he made quite a few enemies throughout his career, who think of him more as a menace than an asset and were thrilled to finally see him stumble.
 
Picard is seeing Starfleet from the outside for the first time, and finally seeing through the cracks in the facade which IMHO, have always been there.

The view from the escalator on the way out of the Admiral's office is somewhat different to that from the Enterprise bridge.

Yup. I think for quite a long time a huge part of him still always thought of Starfleet as the heroic and idealistic organization he most likely believed it to be from a very young age on (he does mention that Starfleet was the only thing that really mattered to him when he was young). Part of this is probably also out of defense because his father hated Starfleet (he did always say it would bring Jean-Luc to a bad end, remember) and he probably had to constantly argue with him about it.

Bottom line is there are a zillion reasons as to why Jean-Luc’s picture of Starfleet and actual Starfleet are pretty much miles apart. For example I can’t imagine the Erik Pressman fan club at Command (I mean they mention the head of Starfleet security was in this as well) was too happy when Jean-Luc exposed Starfleet’s cloaking device shenanigans to the Romulans. And so on and so on. I do love Jean-Luc like no one else but even I have to admit that he sometimes really thinks everyone - especially Starfleet - has the same ideals he has, which is one his glaring flaws. But like I said, nothing new. People just need to stop watching TNG with rose-tinted glasses. It’s all right there, all that PIC does is drive home the point more directly than TNG. ;)
 
can think of examples and instances but I will be succinct and concise what about the UFP in Star Trek Picard elicits such disgust in so many people and are we right?

Others in this thread have nicely outlined the ways in which the Federation and Starfleet were never quite as perfect as the tone of TNG often implied.

But, I think that speaks to the main differences between TNG and PIC: Tone, and creative intent.

Creative Intent: Essentially, Star Trek is always having to pick between two masters in terms of intent when it depicts the Federation. It can either be:
  • Aspirational, in which case its creative goal is to depict the Federation as more moral than our real society in order to present us with a vision of a moral future to which we can aspire; or,
  • Analytical, in which case its creative goal is to depict the Federation as having flaws or corruptions that are similar to those we recognize from our own society, so as to allow the narrative to comment upon our real society using the science-fictional lens of the UFP.
This ties in with tone. The tone on TNG was most often quite hopeful and optimistic -- Picard and company embodied the Federation, and through the tone used to depict them, the Federation was by extension depicted as an apollonian force for justice and order -- "Lawful Good" incarnate. When agents of the UFP were in the wrong, the narrative always implied that they were somehow the exceptions to the rule rather than part of a systematic flaw.

The tone of PIC S1 is quite different: It has a darker tone, starting from a place of despair, and then gradually builds towards a place of redemption. PIC starts off being analytical, using the Federation to comment on events in the real-world U.S. and U.K., and embraces the idea that sometimes when the UFP did wrong, it was a systemic problem rather than an individual exception. PIC then moves on to an aspirational mode and a hopeful tone. Jean-Luc, and the Federation, start in a place of darkness and move to a place of redemption and optimism again.

The plot mechanism of course is a comment on the rise of open xenophobia and nationalism in the U.S. and U.K. circa 2015-2019: The Federation reacts to the Mars Attack by giving in to anti-Romulan and anti-Synth prejudice, banning Synths and abandoning untold millions of Romulans to mass death. That's a pretty horrific thing, to imagine the UFP just blithely allowing millions to die.

A lot of people prefer the optimistic tone and aspirational mode, and they get turned off by the analytical mode or dark tone -- even if that mode and tone are presented as part one of a story that moves towards redemption.
 
Starfleet is portrayed in a negative light (although not as negative as you’re making it sound) because one of the plot points of the show is that Picard feels that they betrayed him and the Romulans for not providing more help with the evacuation once the rescue fleet was destroyed. We’re supposed to side with Picard, because he’s the star of the show, so naturally they’d show Starfleet as the ‘bad guys’ in this scenario. It also didn’t help that Starfleet was infiltrated by the Zhat Vash, or that Picard bad-mouthed them on live television after having been egged on by the reporter.

BTW, who are all these people you say were ‘disgusted’ by Starfleet? Besides yourself, that is.
Look at the criticisms of Star Trek Picard and such disguise towards Starfleet is pretty easy to find here’s a classic example of this https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromIn...the_future_of_star_trek_picard_is_a_dystopia/. There are hundreds of other examples as well.
 
Look at the criticisms of Star Trek Picard and such disguise towards Starfleet is pretty easy to find here’s a classic example of this https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromIn...the_future_of_star_trek_picard_is_a_dystopia/. There are hundreds of other examples as well.

Wow. That Reddit post sounds like some guy writing his college thesis paper about the gripes he has with a fictional TV show. He makes some
valid points, but he seems to be critiquing the entire show in general, not specifically just about Starfleet. And the few responses I read (there’s no way I’m going to read 426 persons’ bitching) sound like the same guy with multiple usernames just artificially adding fuel to the fire.
 
Repulsive? I never got that vibe, not for a second.

Most of PIC takes place outside of Federation territory. So the Federation is hardly portrayed at all, good or bad. That's just not the point of the show.

And even when the Federation is dealt with, I never thought the intent was to deconstruct it or portray it as evil or anything like that. True, the Federation did pull back its efforts to evacuate the Romulans, but there were clear and specific reasons why they did that. It's not evil or malicious (despite what Picard may think).

As for the prejudice against synths? That's clearly the result of covert Romulan influence. So that's definitely not the Federation's fault.

In the end, PIC shows that even when the Federation makes mistakes, it's clearly capable of learning from them and making up for them. So where's the disgust? I don't see any. :shrug:
 
Likely answers to the OP's question from the current landscape of societal development would be either contempt for the deepstate (not likely in Hollywood) or the desire for a narrative of deconstruction (more likely, in my opinion).

We do love to rip apart everything these days.
 
It strikes me that many people like to idolize Starfleet and the UFP (especially on Trek Twitter) but neither Starfleet or the UFP have ever *really* been shown in any show as being especially positive. It's more than simply being at odds with our hero ships; here are just a few examples from memory:
The number of admirals/commodores who hop on board James Kirk's Enterprise to muck things up and force the captain to clean up the mess -- the Corbomite Maneuver for one.
The UFP in Kirk's era seems to have a large number of mining colonies of dubious condition. Unless we assume that the miners of Mudd's Women and Devil in the Dark were working the mines for their own betterment and enjoyment. Granted, the UFP may not be directly responsible for the mines, but it does make one question the system that would still allow the mines to be operated in the manner in which they are shown.
The entire subplot that Starfleet admiralty knows that Spock or at least his body may be on the Genesis planet but won't allow Kirk to return to the planet in spite of the fact that Spock is both a high ranking Starfleet officer and the son of a super influential Vulcan ambassador. They won't help Kirk or Sarek simply because Starfleet Command doesn't understand Vulcan mysticism.
The UFP is willing to hand over a number of worlds colonized by its own citizens to the Cardassians for the sake of a treaty. The colonists basically get a "Oh, your homes are here? Not anymore, buddy!" Not only does the UFP pull eminent domain, but they essentially rescind citizenship and protection for anyone who chooses to stay on those plants and ultimately treats them as terrorists when they fight to stay in their homes!
The forced resettlement of the Baku was approved by the Federation until Picard essentially forced their hands to reconsider.
These are just a few moments that popped into my head that are way worse than Starfleet not helping the Romulans when Mars has just been destroyed or forcing Picard into retirement when he won't reduce the scope of his rescue mission.
 
Couple all that with the UFP’s treatment of the Zimmerman type EMH...the Federation might not be the utopia it is sometimes portrayed as.
In my mind the Baku relocation programme went straight back to business once Picard’s back was turned.
 
It strikes me that many people like to idolize Starfleet and the UFP (especially on Trek Twitter) but neither Starfleet or the UFP have ever *really* been shown in any show as being especially positive.

I mean, I think it's overstating things to claim that Starfleet and the UFP have never been shown to be positive. The Federation has consistently been depicted as a state in which hunger, classism, racism, disease, patriarchy, religious bigotry, etc. -- essentially most forms of large-scale social inequality -- have been eliminated. Starfleet has consistently been depicted as working to advance Federation science and diplomacy. The UFP and Starfleet have always been depicted as embracing diversity and multiculturalism. Etc.

It would be more accurate to say that while broadly positive and representing huge progress over the systems that exist today, the Federation and Starfleet have never been depicted as perfect and still have systemic flaws that the people of the Federation must continue to work to overcome.

It's more than simply being at odds with our hero ships; here are just a few examples from memory:
The number of admirals/commodores who hop on board James Kirk's Enterprise to muck things up and force the captain to clean up the mess -- the Corbomite Maneuver for one.

I'm afraid you're misremembering "The Corbomite Maneuver;" that episode is about the Enterprise encountering the Fesarius, a vessel of the First Federation piloted by Balok. Balok is at first wary of the Enterprise and threatens to destroy it, but he relents and forges a peaceful relationship once Kirk proves the Federation's benevolent intentions to him. No admirals are present in the episode.

It is true that sometimes admirals or other higher-ups have conflicts with Kirk. Sometimes, those conflicts are indicative of a fundamental corruption of the admiral, but most of those conflicts are just differences of command judgment that would be present in any society. It's not indicative of some systemic flaw with the Federation.

The UFP in Kirk's era seems to have a large number of mining colonies of dubious condition. Unless we assume that the miners of Mudd's Women and Devil in the Dark were working the mines for their own betterment and enjoyment. Granted, the UFP may not be directly responsible for the mines, but it does make one question the system that would still allow the mines to be operated in the manner in which they are shown.

It is true that the dilithium mining industry in the 2260s appears to be characterized by extreme hardship and isolation. "The Devil in the Dark" makes it clear that the industry's workers are often at least in part motivated by a desire to achieve great wealth, so clearly the Federation is not a society in which there is no commerce. "Mudd's Women" strongly implies that there is an associated sex worker industry built up around miners' demands for companionship, and possibly a sentients trafficking industry as well. One would hope that in an enlightened society, consensual sex work is legal and well-regulated so as to avoid sentients trafficking and associated sentient rights abuses.

"The Devil in the Dark," however, strongly implies that cooperation with the Horta will revolutionize the mining industry. I find myself wondering if the advent of Horta mining might have led the humanoid mining industry to essentially end?

The entire subplot that Starfleet admiralty knows that Spock or at least his body may be on the Genesis planet but won't allow Kirk to return to the planet in spite of the fact that Spock is both a high ranking Starfleet officer and the son of a super influential Vulcan ambassador. They won't help Kirk or Sarek simply because Starfleet Command doesn't understand Vulcan mysticism.

I think it's clear Starfleet made the wrong call there, but their caution was understandable. The Genesis Planet was an unanticipated development of the Genesis Device being used in a manner for which it was not designed, and all this happened without Starfleet knowing about David Marcus's use of protomatter, and in the context of the Klingon Empire and God knows how many other interstellar neighbors feeling incredibly paranoid about the potential of the Genesis Device to serve as a powerful, genocidal first-strike weapon that could wipe out all life on their planets with almost no warning.

The UFP is willing to hand over a number of worlds colonized by its own citizens to the Cardassians for the sake of a treaty. The colonists basically get a "Oh, your homes are here? Not anymore, buddy!"

I think that's an example of a situation where there will always be conflicts between the best interests of a larger polity and the best interests of a smaller community. What's the alternative for the Federation -- war with the Cardassians that could kill hundreds of billions of people? On the other hand, why should those Federation settlers have to give up their homes just because of Cardassian imperialism?

I don't think either side is truly wrong there.

Not only does the UFP pull eminent domain, but they essentially rescind citizenship

I think you are misremembering the situation. The Native American settlers on Dorvan V are the only Federation citizens whom we know canonically lost their UFP citizenship, and they renounced their citizenship of their own choice so as to stay on Dorvan V in compliance with the treaty. They willingly subjected themselves to the authority of the Cardassian Union.

and protection for anyone who chooses to stay on those plants and ultimately treats them as terrorists when they fight to stay in their homes!

Relinquishing the right to protect UFP citizens who stay on worlds ceded to the Cardassians is a necessity of the treaty, but yes, the UFP also absolutely did not do enough to protect those Federation settlers who remained on UFP worlds in the DMZ who were being attacked by Cardassian militia groups that were secretly armed by the Cardassian government. And Michael Eddington's critique of why the UFP reacted so badly to the Maquis when it became clear that their ultimate goal was to secede from the UFP and establish their own independent state in the DMZ is completely fair: "Nobody leaves Paradise! Everyone is supposed to want to be in the Federation!"

The forced resettlement of the Baku was approved by the Federation until Picard essentially forced their hands to reconsider.

Yes, although I do wonder if Admiral Dougherty described the situation accurately when he got the Federation Council's approval. They were so quick to side with Picard that it make me wonder, especially since, quite frankly, it would not have been particularly hard to just send in another ship and place Picard and his crew under arrest.

These are just a few moments that popped into my head that are way worse than Starfleet not helping the Romulans

I fundamentally disagree here. Allowing tens of billions to die in an act of apathy is far, far worse than any of those examples you just cited. It was fundamentally depraved.
 
I assume Ghel meant "The Deadly Years," an episode that fits the bill in which the maneuver was reprised.
Yes, thank you for correcting me. Without looking up the name, it was the ep in which the commodore takes over the ship and Kirk ultimately has to bluff the opponents to escape the situation after the admiral blunders into trouble. To a degree, Kirk as admiral is also guilty of this in TMP when he takes the Enterprise from Decker, temporarily demotes him and almost immediately gets everyone killed by pushing too hard. Both cases don't look too good for "upper management" and how they treat their people.

Regarding this quote from Sci (sorry, I suck at the multi-quote thing): "I think you are misremembering the situation. The Native American settlers on Dorvan V are the only Federation citizens whom we know canonically lost their UFP citizenship, and they renounced their citizenship of their own choice so as to stay on Dorvan V in compliance with the treaty. They willingly subjected themselves to the authority of the Cardassian Union."

This one I am not misremembering. This is a terrible look by the UFP. Imagine you live in California or even "just" a territory like Puerto Rico. A politician in Washington DC decides to give California to a relatively hostile country (maybe 1970s USSR) with no vote or input by anyone in the state of CA. You are now told to leave the state you've lived in for most of your life or "voluntarily" rescind your citizenship. This doesn't strike me as a particularly "enlightened" way of treating your citizens.

These examples are no means to say that the UFP is bad *as a whole* but rather that the choices made by Starfleet/the UFP in Picard aren't out of line with many of the other decisions made by the Federation over the course of Trek history. Starfleet and the UFP may strive to be idealized states, but have generally been represented as large bureaucracies with all of the strengths and weaknesses of such systems.
 
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