Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[exodus]

The Borg were defeatable, even back during TNG.
Why do folks forget the scene where Picard is talking to the Admiral about the Borg approaching Earth and the Admiral replies something about needing more time to build a better fleet of ships? Wasn't that implying Starfleet already knew how to fend them off, they just needed more time to build it's fleet? That's why they ripped through us in "BOBW". They weren't going to have the upper hand forever. Even the Dominion called in quits in the end.

 

[Anwar]

So which is it? Should they have been killed off after BOBW, or after Scorpion?

It would have been best if they were killed off entirely after BOBW, because then they would've saved the writers the trouble of how to get rid of the 8472 aliens who are also too dead end to keep around. But if they HAD to show up again, they should've all been killed off in Scorpion, with their death also causing something that destroyed all the 8472 as well and getting rid of both dead-ends.

But wait, in your previous post you compared them to the Crystalline Entity etc., saying they should have been a one-shot deal. So I guess they should have completely disappeared right there in Q Who?

No, because Q Who? was obviously set-up for a future confrontation like BOBW. The Entity DID show up once after "Datalore" and was...you guessed it, killed in its next appearance.

You see, you are just proving my point that they could have done better, because they already did. If we were having this argument in the early nineties before anyone saw Scorpion or First Contact or anything else beyond Q Who, would you be arguing the same thing?

The Borg concept wasn't sterile back then. That happened after TNG ended.

Would you say it's impossible to come up with any other good Borg stories so they should just kill them all off?

Yes.

Now this is pure arrogance. You're assuming that the few examples you can come up are the only possibilities. Nobody else could ever write anything better! I don't buy that. In fact, many of those other "one-shots" do return in novels and fan-fics, and guess what -- they don't always suck.

Fanfic and novels don't have to deal with budgets and storytelling constraints.

I told you to stop that. Says who? Citation please. Quote it.

It was proven in this topic alone, Darkwing said that VOY emasculated the Borg and this includes the 8472.

Oversimplification and irrelevant, once again.

No and no.

Citation please.

Go to the DS9 forum and ask anyone. You'll get it soon enough.

Citation?

Folks reactions in this thread alone.

What a silly cop-out. I can just as easily turn that around and say you should have left us "haters" in peace if you wanted to simply enjoy.

Fans can't enjoy something if haters are always showing up ripping into the show.

Besides, this makes no sense. How are we not leaving you in peace? You chose to enter the discussion as freely as I did and we both are free to leave it at any point. Obviously we're both here because we want to be.

Someone started this thread and people who hate the show started posting in it and talked about how they hated the show. That's not leaving VOY fans in peace if they are just going to keep coming here to do that. If they just think they can post about how much they hate the show in the show's own forum and don't expect anyone who LIKES the show to counter that..well they clearly don't understand what the point of this place is.

...What?

Char is a Niner who hates Voyager, and he's proving my "Niners hate Voyager" theory I've advocated for quite some time quite true.

 

[Anwar]

The Borg were defeatable, even back during TNG.
Why do folks forget the scene where Picard is talking to the Admiral about the Borg approaching Earth and the Admiral replies something about needing more time to build a better fleet of ships? Wasn't that implying Starfleet already knew how to fend them off, they just needed more time to build it's fleet. That's why they ripped through us in "BOBW". They weren't going to have the upper hand forever. Even the Dominion called in quits in the end.

Tell that to the "Borg were emasculated" VOY hating folks.

 

[exodus]

The Borg were defeatable, even back during TNG.
Why do folks forget the scene where Picard is talking to the Admiral about the Borg approaching Earth and the Admiral replies something about needing more time to build a better fleet of ships? Wasn't that implying Starfleet already knew how to fend them off, they just needed more time to build it's fleet. That's why they ripped through us in "BOBW". They weren't going to have the upper hand forever. Even the Dominion called in quits in the end.

Tell that to the "Borg were emasculated" VOY hating folks.

If anything,too me Voy. eps. like "Scorpion", "Dark Frontier" & "Child's Play" made the Borg cool again. IMO TNG's "Decent" took the Borg's balls away way before Voy. did.
Come on, one of the supposed biggest threats to mankind in the galaxy is following Lore? Didn't the Borg though Locutus call Data outdated? They follow Lore over the their Queen?

 

[Anwar]

I think that they should have had Hugh and his group show up in Voyager. They could've helped them rescue Seven in "Dark Frontier" and stay on as a recurring "Borg resistance" until it culminates in "Unimatrix Zero" with them creating the greater Borg Resistance before sending VOY closer to Earth.

That may have gone over better with the Haters, since it would've been "Borg vs Borg" instead of "Voyager vs Borg".

Of course, I'd rather they have just killed all the Borg in BOBW. But since you told me you liked FC, maybe that second Cube could be all that remains of the Borg and when the Queen dies THEN they all die. For good.

 

[zar]

If we were having this argument in the early nineties before anyone saw Scorpion or First Contact or anything else beyond Q Who, would you be arguing the same thing? Would you say it's impossible to come up with any other good Borg stories so they should just kill them all off?

Yes.

No, because Q Who? was obviously set-up for a future confrontation

Darkwing said that VOY emasculated the Borg and this includes ...

No, damn it, it doesn't include anything UNLESS HE ACTUALLY SAID IT DOES. What you're doing is called misrepresentation. Exaggeration. All he said was VOY emasculated the Borg. That doesn't mean EVERY SECOND the Borg were EVER on screen was an example of emasculation. We already went over this with you. Stop putting words in our mouths. Stop.

Go to the DS9 forum and ask anyone.

No. It's YOUR job to back YOURSELF up, and I want citations from the people you are arguing with.

Folks reactions in this thread alone.

No. You asserted quite plainly that the reason folks are dumbfounded by your posts is because they're surprised you have a backbone and they expect you to be a "whipping boy", which is slander. I want a quote that backs up your nonsensical accusation that this is what's going through our minds.

Fans can't enjoy something if haters are always showing up ripping into the show.

Stop being melodramatic. Nothing is forcing you to even open this thread let alone read it and reply to it. I'm posting here because I desire to do so, just as you do.

If they just think they can post about how much they hate the show in the show's own forum and don't expect anyone who LIKES the show to counter that..well they clearly don't understand what the point of this place is.

No, evidently, you're the one who doesn't understand the basic point of forums. I fully expect people who don't agree with me to counter. It would be boring if they didn't. And before I met you, I even expected them to back themselves up with reasoning and citations.

Char is a Niner who hates Voyager, and he's proving my "Niners hate Voyager" theory I've advocated for quite some time quite true.

I see your point. Come to think of it, Char's name begins with the letter C, and he's proving that "C-namers hate Voyager" theory I've been working on.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, that came out wrong. Q Who? made it clear that the Borg were coming for a confrontation and they weren't some "Freak of the week" thing like the Space Amoeba, V'Ger or the Whale Probe were. But after their confrontation in BOBW they should have been finished, once and for all, with the one Cube being their ONE Cube. If they had to show up again, then in FC when the Queen died all Borg everywhere should have died.

No, damn it, it doesn't include anything UNLESS HE ACTUALLY SAID IT DOES. What you're doing is called misrepresentation. Exaggeration. All he said was VOY emasculated the Borg. That doesn't mean EVERY SECOND the Borg were EVER on screen was an example of emasculation. We already went over this with you. Stop putting words in our mouths. Stop.

When he comes in and says "Not every VOY episode with the Borg was bad" I'll stop. His statement about emasculation is strong enough and broad enough to get my interpretation from it, otherwise.

No. It's YOUR job to back YOURSELF up, and I want citations from the people you are arguing with.

A few months back I was arguing this with RyuRoots, Saito S and Withers. It was called "Voyager: The Borg" and later on "8472: What went wrong". Read up both of them yourself for the best unbiased view and see for yourself. Here are the addresses:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=116884
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=115232

I want a quote that backs up your nonsensical accusation that this is what's going through our minds.

They'll just deny it if I point it out, but the reaction to me is proof enough. Everyone freaks out if someone supports VOY.

[quoteI see your point. Come to think of it, Char's name begins with the letter C, and he's proving that "C-namers hate Voyager" theory I've been working on.[/QUOTE]

Cepstrum doesn't hate Voyager, keep working on it.

 

[Servo]

Anwar, I take it you've abandoned our discussion in favour of playing the martyr, and blindly rushing to the defense of Voyager's writers?

I'm particularly amused by your assertion that the TNG writers are somehow at fault for Voyager's handling of the Borg.

 

[Char Aznable]

Plot contrivance victory.

Yet they still won, which torpedoes your claims about them being unbeatable.

"Boo-hoo, wah-wah, the Feds got their hands on Borg tech and learned how to defend themselves! I can't stand it!"

Yes, the Borg were done as an enemy after BOBW. They should have all died then and there.

Says who? There are plenty of story telling avenues you can take an enemy, even one as powerful as the Borg, if you have IMAGINATION and creativity.

That DS9 weakened the Dominion and no one cared, pure double standard.

No they didn't. Stop making things up. The Dominion were a consistant threat from beginning to end.

Doesn't matter how good the writing is, if you were dumb enough to make an overpowered enemy in the first place.

Good thing the Borg weren't over powered then . . .

Well, you got them in the form of the Kazon, Vidiians, Hirogen, etc. And you hated all of them, unconditionally. Boo-hoo for not liking for getting what you want.

Just because people wanted reoccuring villains doesn't mean we wanted ones that were as shitty as those you listed. You seem to be ignoring the fact that most people hated those enemies because they were fucking lame!

It was stated that the Delta Quadrant was their home.

In FC . . . a line which was made to set up their appearance in VOY. That doesn't count.

One show gets away with everyone the other is criticized for. Thus meaning that most criticisms of the show are invalid and simple bias.

Except this, "point," has been proven wrong again and again.

Too bad VOY-haters don't know what "quality" is.

Seriously . . . fucking Christ, you're the most insufferable, "person," I've encountered in these forums.

The Borg concept was what was sterile. There wasn't much left for them after BOBW.

Fucking broken record . . .

It's not my fault you hate the show for simply existing.

Oh, my god . . . seriously, you having to be trolling at this point. No one can possibly be this stubborn and stupid.

Nah, it's more like "Boo-hoo, wah-wah I can't take swipes at VOY anymore!". Thanks for further proving the "Niners hate Voyager" fact.

TOS is my favorite show FYI, you nobody. So, I don't know what the fuck you're babbling about. Look up sarcasm please.

Excuse me if Niners hate the show for no reason and can't stand it if anyone bothers calling them on it. If they didn't want to discuss it, they shouldn't have bashed the show to begin with.

You don't make points though. You bitch and moan in your own butthurt way and spread lies and hyperbole. All you've proven is how utterly insane and idiotic hardcore VOY fans can be. If anything, you're making the show look (somehow) worse.

VOY gets trashed for no reason, VOY defenders defend. Cause and effect, dude.

I don't care if I get warned/banned for this. You're an idiot.

 

[Anwar]

Actually Servo, I agree with you that VOY's problem was more character consistency and telling stories as if it was an anthology show than a continuing narrative. Of course, with all the crazy wacky stuff that happened every week they'd either have to explain that over 100 years of human encountering such stuff it's just not THAT exciting for them and not as likely to affect them. Because I'm not sure they could tell a single story that wouldn't change the characters in SOME way, and after at least two seasons of this the characters would all be rather different than how they started as and this might not endear the show too much to a prospective audience.

I mean, even in DS9 not every episode affected the characters.

 

[Anwar]

Plot contrivance victory.

Yet they still won, which torpedoes your claims about them being unbeatable.

If the only way to beat an enemy is on a technicality/plot contrivance then yes for all intents and purposes they are unbeatable.

Says who? There are plenty of story telling avenues you can take an enemy, even one as powerful as the Borg, if you have IMAGINATION and creativity.

Not really. No.

No they didn't. Stop making things up. The Dominion were a consistant threat from beginning to end.

Their main advantage over the Feds was taken away, and without that they were equal to the Feds. DS9 could keep them a threat because they had cannon fodder to sacrifice to the Dominion and because they were the Feds' equals and not their ultimate superior. VOY did not have cannon fodder and the Borg were too far beyond the Feds to be a recurring enemy that did more than show up once ever 2-3 seasons.

Good thing the Borg weren't over powered then . . .

I'm starting to think you don't know what "overpowered" means.

Just because people wanted reoccuring villains doesn't mean we wanted ones that were as shitty as those you listed. You seem to be ignoring the fact that most people hated those enemies because they were fucking lame!

There were some problems with the Kazon, but there weren't any with the Vidiians or Hirogen. It was pure dislike, nothing wrong with them inherently.

Except this, "point," has been proven wrong again and again.

No, just a bunch of "That's irrelevant"s.

You don't make points though. You bitch and moan in your own butthurt way and spread lies and hyperbole. All you've proven is how utterly insane and idiotic hardcore VOY fans can be.

Action and reaction dude, it's thanks to 15 years of being insulted by VOY haters who are FAR worse if I come off as a little nasty to you. Though that says more about lack of thick skin on your part.

I don't care if I get warned/banned for this. You're an idiot.

Hit the ignore button, it'll do us all some good. I have real discussions to get back to.

 

[Servo]

And yet you continue to defend sloppy writing by assuming what the audience thinks, perpetuating an "us vs them" attitude, and using every excuse you can to explain away the failings of the writers.

This thing with the Borg being killed off in BOBW is ridiculous. TNG's writers made great use of the Borg in their run, but now you're saying that it's their fault that Voyager's writers couldn't continue the standard?

This whole chip you have on your shoulder about Niners trashing Voyager is completely beside the point. You're the only one banging on about that in here, as no-one else gives a shit. If you take the time to stop acting like it's your personal burden to defend Voyager, and look objectively at the show and how it developed (or didn't, as the case may be), then you'll probably end up in less arguments.

I consider DS9 to be my favourite Trek show, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with my feelings towards Voyager. I think you're letting your experience with a vocal minority cloud your judgement about Trek fandom, and your blindness to Voyager's weaknesses is compounding the matter.

 

[TheGodBen]

I don't care if I get warned/banned for this...

I'd advise you to retract that statement because 1) it's against the rules, and 2) such a reaction is exactly what trolls want, and feeding a troll is not only self-defeating, it's also against the rules. Believe me, I know it's hard not to fall for this bait, it's extremely tempting, but the onus is on you to ignore it. If you can't ignore it, then go to your control panel and add that user to your ignore list.

 

[Anwar]

TNG only used the Borg in 4 or so episodes (I count two-parters as one episode). In their intro the ENT only escaped thanks to Q, in BOBW they won on a plot contrivance/technicality that couldn't be replicated, in "I, Borg" they just hid in the Nebula and the Borg left without knowing they were there (which didn't make sense, really) and in "Descent" they weren't the Collective but weaker individual drones under Lore's control.

In other words, they only ever really battled the Borg twice in the entire series of TNG. The first time they lost and only escaped thanks to Q, the second time they won on a technicality.

There really wasn't much mileage left in them after that. At least not something that could be done in a show that was about one lone, weak, ship that had no allies.

Frankly, if I was in charge I would've just given the "Aliens shouldn't keep showing up!" folks a well-deserved middle finger and kept using the same aliens in recurring roles all the way to the 7th season. If VOY just kept using their own aliens then they wouldn't have had to keep using the Borg, or just spared them for a story every few seasons the way TNG did (because TNG had other aliens to use over and over besides the Borg).

I do appreciate you keeping civil about this.

 

[Servo]

Says who? There are plenty of story telling avenues you can take an enemy, even one as powerful as the Borg, if you have IMAGINATION and creativity.

Not really. No.

You aren't even anywhere near qualified to make a blanket statement like that.

 

[zar]

When he comes in and says "Not every VOY episode with the Borg was bad" I'll stop.

No you won't, because he already did.

His statement about emasculation is strong enough and broad enough to get my interpretation from it, otherwise.

Bullshit. It is no stronger or broader than anyone else's statements who are all saying the same thing: that VOY portrayed the Borg as weak. And that's all there is to the statements. You are shamelessly putting words in his mouth.

No. It's YOUR job to back YOURSELF up, and I want citations from the people you are arguing with.

A few months back I was arguing this with RyuRoots, Saito S and Withers. It was called "Voyager: The Borg" and later on "8472: What went wrong". Read up both of them yourself for the best unbiased view and see for yourself. Here are the addresses:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=116884
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=115232

Both of those threads are several pages long and I don't feel like sifting through them to find alleged evidence of your accusations, especially when I have every reason to believe they're probably just like this thread, full of you misrepresenting everything they say. If you have actual quotes, show them to us (and not exaggerated "interpretations" of them).

They'll just deny it if I point it out

If they actually said it, then you can quote it. They can't "deny" that.

You're just avoiding the responsibility to actually back up all the bullshit slander you've been spewing. Either offer us citations, or finally admit that you're making it up.

Says who? There are plenty of story telling avenues you can take an enemy, even one as powerful as the Borg, if you have IMAGINATION and creativity.

Not really. No.

You aren't even anywhere near qualified to make a blanket statement like that.

No one is. And I have hard evidence in my bookshelf that he is absolutely wrong.

 

[Anwar]

In a show where the heroes are on one small, relatively weak ship, and they have no allies and no civilization to defend, the Borg really have no place. They're major galactic threats, not the kind of enemy that belong in a show like Voyager. Scorpion worked as a one-time thing, in an episodic show like VOY the Borg/8472 war had no real point beyond "Scorpion" but having introduced the 8472 they needed to also get rid of them. And since they were so expensive to use the resolution couldn't be some big epic battle either, it preferably (and was) a single episode that just sent them off in an inexpensive way.

Now, if VOY had been another Alpha Quadrant show where they could call on the Federation for assistance then the Borg could fit in.

 

[Anwar]

No you won't, because he already did.

No, he didn't.

Bullshit. It is no stronger or broader than anyone else's statements who are all saying the same thing: that VOY portrayed the Borg as weak.

And unless he says otherwise, he's including Scorpion in that statement as well. After all, losing to someone in straight up combat means you are weak.

No one is. And I have hard evidence in my bookshelf that he is absolutely wrong.

Those novels are about them fighting the entire Alpha Quadrant, they aren't about one tiny lightly-armed ship with no allies. Totally different things.

And novels don't have to worry about things like budgets or network constraints.

 

[zar]

And unless he says otherwise,

No.

 

[Anwar]

If a guy says "The Borg...talk about emasculation" and just leaves it at that, and doesn't come back to say "Well, Scorpion was okay" then Scorpion is part of the emasculation.