Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[TheGodBen]

He stated so himself in a documentary of Trek that aired on PBS.

Convenient, referencing an interview I have never seen and am unlikely to ever see. Do you know the name of the documentary?

In response to your claim, here's a link to an interview he did in 1997 where he was asked if he was a fan of Star Trek:

Greg_Magnus asks: Were a fan of Star Trek when you were growing up?
Ira Behr: Yes. I don't think I missed an episode of the original series. Though, like most fans, I was disappointed with season three. I think the show that really won me over was "Charlie X". When I lived in Malibu, Robert Walker, Jr. ran a store there. I used to see him on occasion. I used to think: "Oh my God, it's Charlie X." But I never watch the show in repeats. And except for going to the movies when they were released, I didn't think much about Star Trek in the intervening years.

As you can see, Ira Behr does not hate Star Trek, he was a fan of TOS, and I assume you will not make that claim again in the future without a proper reference.

How can you claim it's an exaggeration if you didn't hear him say it yourself?

Because I've read a lot about the guy and he never gave the impression that he hated Star Trek. He said that he hated the Roddenberry Box and he left TNG after one season out of frustration, but the Roddenberry Box was one of Gene's later ideas that wasn't present in TOS or movies II-VI. Ron Moore also had trouble writing within the Roddenberry Box, but he was one of the biggest Star Trek fans to ever write for the franchise.

 

[exodus]

He stated so himself in a documentary of Trek that aired on PBS.

Convenient, referencing an interview I have never seen and am unlikely to ever see. Do you know the name of the documentary?

In response to your claim, here's a link to an interview he did in 1997 where he was asked if he was a fan of Star Trek:

Greg_Magnus asks: Were a fan of Star Trek when you were growing up?
Ira Behr: Yes. I don't think I missed an episode of the original series. Though, like most fans, I was disappointed with season three. I think the show that really won me over was "Charlie X". When I lived in Malibu, Robert Walker, Jr. ran a store there. I used to see him on occasion. I used to think: "Oh my God, it's Charlie X." But I never watch the show in repeats. And except for going to the movies when they were released, I didn't think much about Star Trek in the intervening years.

As you can see, Ira Behr does not hate Star Trek, he was a fan of TOS, and I assume you will not make that claim again in the future without a proper reference.

You've already made up your mind that if you haven't seen it, then it doesn't exist.
He said he didn't think much of Trek in the intervening years.
Sounds to me like he doesn't like modern Trek.

However, for those that are:
Forgive me but it was about 3 or 4 years ago.(I can't recall the title because is was a while back)
But they also interviewed Berman, Braga, Taylor and members of the cast of each show.
Plus, there was a post about the show in Gen. Trek after it aired. So I know more than just me saw it.
Ira's interview about hating Trek when into why he felt the need to create Trek's first "war ship", The Defiant and how he unlike all other Treks wanted the Dominion to be a villian the Federation couldn't truly make peace with.
Too know all that, I would've had to have seen something.
I'm not that creative to make it up.

 

[PsychoPere]

He stated so himself in a documentary of Trek that aired on PBS.

Convenient, referencing an interview I have never seen and am unlikely to ever see. Do you know the name of the documentary?

I don't think there was such a documentary.

Since reading exodus's assertion that Ira Behr himself stated he hates Star Trek, I've been trying to find some evidence to support that claim. Googling "Ira Steven Behr" + "Star Trek" turns up 2 pages of results, but none include Behr statements about hating Star Trek; they are all merely pages on which both phrases have been used. Googling "Ira Behr" + "hates Star Trek" (and "hate" instead of "hates") is very similar, with this very thread showing at the top of the Google results when you search "Ira Behr" + "hate Star Trek." You'd think that someone out on the vastness of the internet would have also seen this documentary and would have posted something about Ira Behr hating Star Trek if it were so.

I didn't stop there, though, just in case exodus was the only person in the world to have seen this documentary. As such, I went to IMDB. The last (and only in the 2000s) documentary related to Star Trek that Ira Behr participated in was called "How William Shatner Changed the World," co-produced by Discovery Channel Canada and The History Channel. However, none of the other individuals cited in exodus's post as having been interviewed on the same documentary in which Behr allegedly made this "hate" claim were involved in that one. Then I looked up Rick Berman and Brannon Braga on IMDB to find any recent (again, any produced in the 2000s in case he wasn't remembering the timeframe correctly as only within the last 3-4 years) ST-related documentaries both were in. I found two possibilities: "America Loves... Star Trek," which Memory Alpha states was produced by TNN when that network purchased & started airing The Next Generation; the second possibility was "Star Trek: Beyond the Final Frontier," produced by The History Channel. However, Ira Behr was not interviewed in either of those documentaries.

Therefore, I am forced to conclude that no such documentary exists in which Ira Behr allegedly stated that he hates Star Trek.

 

[exodus]

^^So I'll ask again.

You don't find him saying he didn't think much of Trek in intervining years the same thing?
..or are we being literal again with the word "hate"?

 

[TheGodBen]

You've already made up your mind that if you haven't seen it, then it doesn't exist.

You haven't given me a reason to believe that it exists. You claimed that Ira Behr said something that completely contradicts things he has said in the past, and which completely contradicts his writing career, and your only reference is a documentary whose title you don't remember and for which nobody has been able to find any evidence for. Conservapedia has higher standards than that.

It doesn't help your case that you have, several times in this thread, supported the arguments of one of the biggest trolls on this forum in his attempts to bait other posters. To be perfectly honest, that doesn't aid your credibility in my eyes. I'm not saying that you're lying, I'm just saying that I cannot accept your word as truth.

He said he didn't think much of Trek in the intervening years.
Sounds to me like he doesn't like modern Trek.

Considering the fact that he wrote or produced a considerable portion of modern Trek, I sincerely doubt that. The real question is, does he like TNG? The answer to that question is that he probably doesn't, but that does not mean he's not a Star Trek fan any more than I'm not a Star Trek fan for not liking Voyager. There's quite a few people on this board that don't like TNG for one reason or another, are you saying that none of those people are Star Trek fans?

Plus, there was a post about the show in Gen. Trek after it aired. So I know more than just me saw it.

I searched Gen Trek and there was nothing to be found. It's possible that the thread was lost, I know back in the old days threads were automatically deleted if inactive for a certain time.

 

[flemm]

What I have heard people like Ira Behr and Ron Moore complain about on numerous occasions with regard to TNG is the prohibition on writing any type of serious conflict and disagreement between the main characters, basically for two reasons: one, it is creatively stifling and two, it makes no sense on a Trek show given that TOS was built around tension and disagreement between its main characters.

Nowhere have I read that these people hated or disliked Star Trek, merely certain aspects of its modern form. On the contrary, they are both fans of Star Trek, and especially of TOS. Obviously on DS9 they tried to get back to having some lasting and significant tensions between regular characters, so in that respect DS9 is closer to TOS in tone than the rest of modern Trek, despite other obvious divergences from the original Trek formula. I like it better that way, but it is not intrinsically superior. Obviously TNG had a lot of success with mostly harmonious interactions between its main cast members.

Basically TNG employs a purely heroic model: conflict comes from outside the adventuring group, not from within (unless somebody is "possessed" or whatever, like Boromir in the LotR, or numerous episodes of TNG). This can work very well in certain circumstances, though it is not currently fashionable in sci-fi.

DS9 employs more of a mixed approach: there is still a clearly identifiable band of heroes who are adventuring together, but the lines are more blurred and there are more examples of drama (by which I mean conflict generated primarily by the characters, not by an external source).

Voyager also employs the heroic model, though less successfully than TNG. I think it could have worked for Voyager, though, at least once the Maquis/Starfleet tension had mostly been put to rest. For me the show's problems lie elsewhere.

 

[exodus]

You've already made up your mind that if you haven't seen it, then it doesn't exist.

You haven't given me a reason to believe that it exists. You claimed that Ira Behr said something that completely contradicts things he has said in the past, and which completely contradicts his writing career, and your only reference is a documentary whose title you don't remember and for which nobody has been able to find any evidence for. Conservapedia has higher standards than that.

It doesn't help your case that you have, several times in this thread, supported the arguments of one of the biggest trolls on this forum in his attempts to bait other posters. To be perfectly honest, that doesn't aid your credibility in my eyes. I'm not saying that you're lying, I'm just saying that I cannot accept your word as truth.

First off, you made you conclusion before you even asked it I knew the title of the program, so regardless of what I said after wouldn't have mattered to you.

Second, I judge you based on you & you alone. Not on your actions or associations with others. However, if that is how you feel, then please don't engage me in conversation or debate again. I have no time for those that base their opinions of others due to what they agree or disagree in of Star Trek nor is your personal opinions of me relevant to the subject. That's just plain stupid IMO.

 

[Anwar]

Hell, even in TOS the internal conflict wasn't all that present either. A lot of it came from some external source or something messing with their minds. McCoy and Spock didn't show disdain for one another when things were a-okay, and a lot of the tension came from guest star characters like Stiles.

So while there was some internal tension in TOS, it was hardly the driving force of the show or omnipresent.

And I'm apparently one of the biggest trolls in the forum, even though I myself have issues with VOY and think it could have been better? Seems the world "troll" means something different nowadays.

 

[exodus]

And I'm apparently one of the biggest trolls in the forum, even though I myself have issues with VOY and think it could have been better? Seems the world "troll" means something different nowadays.

It's beyond absurd that my content of character comes into question because I agree with some of your points regardless of all the hundreds of other posters I've agreed and interacted with over the 10+ years I've been posting here.

 

[zar]

And I'm apparently one of the biggest trolls in the forum, even though I myself have issues with VOY and think it could have been better? Seems the world "troll" means something different nowadays.

Does it? I don't recall any period in history when it meant having an absolutely contrary position than the people you're trolling.

How can you claim it's an exaggeration if you didn't hear him say it yourself?

Because "hates Star Trek" is strong and generalized wording so the only way it would not be exaggeration is if it's absolutely true, and because it doesn't match up with anything else that we did hear him say ourselves. He used DS9 to critique Gene Roddenberry's idea of humans and Starfleet being "perfect". You most likely heard him comment on this and misinterpreted it as "hating Star Trek".

exodus, all TheGodBen said in regards to defending Anwar was "it doesn't help your case". You've blown it out of proportion. The real issue is that you're claiming something without backing it up. Why don't you try to find the alleged PBS interview on Youtube or find a transcript.

 

[Anwar]

GodBen says I'm a troll for posting stuff opposed to the critiques of VOY. I suppose that makes anyone who disagrees over anything a troll if that's his description.

 

[exodus]

exodus, all TheGodBen said in regards to defending Anwar was "it doesn't help your case". You've blown it out of proportion.

That doesn't matter.
Personal opinions of others has nothing what so ever to do with the topic. That's what a PM is for.
If you agreed with someone on some issues I didn't, should that make you suspect too?
There was no reason to mention it, other than to use it as an excuse.

 

[Anwar]

As as for the "Roddenberry Box", even when Gene had complete control over the films when he did TMP there was still plenty of internal conflict and tension there.

 

[RyuRoots]

GodBen says I'm a troll for posting stuff opposed to the critiques of VOY.

Except...that's not at all what you were doing?

 

[Shatnertage]

I like the idea of the Roddenberry box. It should be like the penalty box for Star Trek fans who get too carried away.

And there's no crying allowed in the Roddenberry box, even if you are the security chief.

I like that we've gone past arguing what's good or bad about VOY, and are now arguing over what the best way to argue about what's good or bad about VOY should be.

 

[zar]

I suppose that makes ANYONE who disagrees over ANYTHING...

Yes, Anwar. *gently pats your head* Yes it does.

 

[Anwar]

GodBen says I'm a troll for posting stuff opposed to the critiques of VOY.

Except...that's not at all what you were doing?

People critiqued VOY, I opposed the critiques. Simple as that.

 

[TheGodBen]

First off, you made you conclusion before you even asked it I knew the title of the program, so regardless of what I said after wouldn't have mattered to you.

Because I know a fair bit about Ira Behr, I've read a lot of interviews with him, I've read other people talking about him, and I have never gotten the impression that he hated Star Trek. When I read your post, it was such an absurd claim that there was no way I was going to believe it without reading or seeing the interview because it doesn't match up with what I've seen him say and do in the past. It would be like someone claiming that there was an interview where Barack Obama said he was opposed to healthcare reform; it just doesn't make sense with everything else I know about the man.

It's beyond absurd that my content of character comes into question because I agree with some of your points regardless of all the hundreds of other posters I've agreed and interacted with over the 10+ years I've been posting here.

To do so in this thread where he was so clearly attempting to rile people up, as he so often does, by using using exaggerated strawmen and claims that other posters said things that they never actually said, that does call your own claims into question. If you support that sort of behaviour in another poster, what's to stop you from behaving that way yourself?

Ira Behr said that he doesn't like certain aspects that Roddenberry incorporated into TNG, most of us know this, it's one of the reasons why he quit writing for TNG. You exaggerated that by claiming that he hates Star Trek. So no, it's not just because you're defending a troll, it was because you appeared to be acting in the same manner.

If you find the interview where he said he hates Trek, I'll admit that I'm wrong in that interpretation. If there is no such interview, or you find the interview and it turns out that you misremembered it, then I'll be able to use this thread in the future as evidence that you're prone to exaggeration.

 

[RyuRoots]

GodBen says I'm a troll for posting stuff opposed to the critiques of VOY.

Except...that's not at all what you were doing?

People critiqued VOY, I opposed the critiques. Simple as that.

Whatever you say, dude.

 

[exodus]

First off, you made you conclusion before you even asked it I knew the title of the program, so regardless of what I said after wouldn't have mattered to you.

Because I know a fair bit about Ira Behr, I've read a lot of interviews with him, I've read other people talking about him, and I have never gotten the impression that he hated Star Trek. When I read your post, it was such an absurd claim that there was no way I was going to believe it without reading or seeing the interview because it doesn't match up with what I've seen him say and do in the past. It would be like someone claiming that there was an interview where Barack Obama said he was opposed to healthcare reform; it just doesn't make sense with everything else I know about the man.

It's beyond absurd that my content of character comes into question because I agree with some of your points regardless of all the hundreds of other posters I've agreed and interacted with over the 10+ years I've been posting here.

To do so in this thread where he was so clearly attempting to rile people up, as he so often does, by using using exaggerated strawmen and claims that other posters said things that they never actually said, that does call your own claims into question. If you support that sort of behaviour in another poster, what's to stop you from behaving that way yourself?

Ira Behr said that he doesn't like certain aspects that Roddenberry incorporated into TNG, most of us know this, it's one of the reasons why he quit writing for TNG. You exaggerated that by claiming that he hates Star Trek. So no, it's not just because you're defending a troll, it was because you appeared to be acting in the same manner.

If you find the interview where he said he hates Trek, I'll admit that I'm wrong in that interpretation. If there is no such interview, or you find the interview and it turns out that you misremembered it, then I'll be able to use this thread in the future as evidence that you're prone to exaggeration.

What is this, High School?
So you're going to hold a grudge, just to throw it back in my face.
That's pretty sad that simply not engaging a person anymore isn't even an option for you.

I can see this isn't even about the subject with you anymore.
You clearly have other agendas.
As I've asked you before, please don't engage me in conversation anymore. thanks.