Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[Cepstrum]

It seems this has become less about why many Trek fans rank VOY towards the bottom and more about.... something else.


I don't think it's that hard, really:

1. VOY didn't have the epic/dramatic scope pioneered by DS9, which caused many to see it as a regression.

2. VOY did not have the benefit of being the main sci-fi show (or Trek show) around as TNG did, which made it easier to overlook the latter's faults and harder to overlook the former's.

3. There was a little Trek fatigue, which is why the creators had wanted to delay the start of VOY.

4. There *was* some network meddling, as with TOS.

5. Jeri Taylor nixed a lot of stories because she wanted it to be more like TNG.

6. There was a lack of continuity (though I think it's a little exaggerated. It just stands out more because of DS9.)

7. It was trying too hard to appeal to a mass rather than Trek/niche audience, which made it highly episodic and often more comical than was probably necessary.

8. Fans who actually paid close attention (understandably) grew frustrated with the always-pristine condition of Voyager, despite its severance from SF.

9. Character development wasn't a priority. Many say that's what made DS9 compelling, and how Piller explains he helped "rescue" TNG when he joined TNG in season three. He said he didn't know sci-fi but he knew how to write characters. Piller was only around for the first two seasons and was a lame-duck, so he didn't fight hard to get his ideas accepted (so he says).

10. Seven's arrival was rather controversial for a number of reasons. And many were displeased as it gradually became a trio show focusing on Seven, the Doctor, and Janeway.

11. Some stories were rather poor quality.

12. Many things didn't quite make sense, such as how the primitive Kazon followed Voyager for two years (and away from their home territory).

13. The frequency of Borg episodes was controversial. The Borg were highly popular, especially to the casual fan, but some suffered from "Borg fatigue". The Borg were also portrayed differently with vendettas etc.


I say all that while still ranking VOY at or near the top of my favorite Trek shows. Some of its weaknesses I found endearing, such as the comedy, occasional absurdity, (in my view) fun characters, and the excitement of at least pretending they were out there all alone, even if it didn't seem to make much of a difference.

But then again, I like TNG, DS9, and VOY equally well. I'm glad they were different. The light-hearted VOY is, to me, a fun show. If I want compelling drama and cool story arcs, I'll watch DS9. If I want to see the flagship roam around exploring both physical phenomena and moral dilemmas (with a lot of long, moralizing speeches), I'll watch TNG.

I'm glad for their differences. But I *completely* understand why VOY is less popular with many. It could have been a lot different from how it turned out. But it wasn't.

I respect the opinions of those who don't like VOY, but there is one big advantage to it: if I want to have a non-Trekkie watch an episode with me, I'd go with VOY most every time. I have found DS9 is too hard for them to "get", but VOY needs almost no explanation. The non-Trekkies I've had watch VOY say they like it the best. I hope it thus can serve as a catalyst for getting people hooked on Trek. It did it for me at least.



Sorry for the interruption. I know there's debate going back and forth, so please disregard my opinions as necessary.

 

[sonak]

Wow. That was an awesome analysis.

 

[Anwar]

Indeed. Nice to see that the ones who can enjoy TNG, DS9 and VOY are beginning to become the most rational of the "factions" around here.

But just to address a few things:

1) VOY didn't have much to work with in terms of creating an "Epic" storyline like DS9's. DS9 had the entire Trekverse, already built up by TOS and TNG, to play with. VOY had nothing established, it needed to be stationary to properly develop its aliens and whatever politics of the area (which it couldn't do thanks to the premise). This isn't like Farscape where they WERE more or less stationary since they never left the area of space inhabited by the Peacekeepers and Scarrans, or BSG where they were a mobile civilization and not just one small ship.

3) Agreed totally. They should have done what Berman wanted and wait until DS9 was finished to do VOY.

4) A LOT.

5) She was one of the major problems with the show.

6) Meh, I've been over this with others before...

7) Trek is just not mainstream enough for that to ever work.

8) Like I said, other shows like Farscape got away with their ship always looking the same and no one cared.

9) Yes, though in some cases the lack of development (Kim and Chakotay) was because the actors just weren't that good/weren't professional and this made the staff not want to deal with them.

10) Well, TOS worked with its trinity...

11) Yep

12) Well, maybe they had territory just that spread out in random patches instead of the usual "Sphere" empires?

13) Uh-huh. VOY needed to be less on the move so they could tell more stories about their original aliens. Since the Borg were the only ones with FTL capable of showing up a lot they were the only choice.

 

[zar]

Okay, finally we're getting somewhere. Folks are finally admitting it's not beyond possibility for VOY to ever destroy a single Borg vessel without too much hassle. It's a start.

Hahaha, no. That was hardly the first time anyone has said something that contradicts your imaginary concept of what the fans actually think like, and it's never stopped you before. In fact just recently, numerous people were testifying to Scorpion's high esteem, yet you continued to blather your tripe about how everyone hates it. If any new ground is being broken here, it's that you are finally starting to buckle under the pressure of believing your own nonsense... but I doubt it.

But then again, I like TNG, DS9, and VOY equally well. I'm glad they were different. The light-hearted VOY is, to me, a fun show. If I want compelling drama and cool story arcs, I'll watch DS9. If I want to see the flagship roam around exploring both physical phenomena and moral dilemmas (with a lot of long, moralizing speeches), I'll watch TNG.

Exactly, each show had a different "mood" which makes it hard to choose a favorite. But as you noted in #5, VOY could have done a much better job of making itself unique than it did.

Nice to see that the ones who can enjoy TNG, DS9 and VOY are beginning to become the most rational of the "factions" around here.

No, no, no. You see, your tendency to think only in absolutes has blinded you to the fact that that "faction" is actually the vast majority here. Criticizing something does not negate the possibility of enjoying it.

 

[Anwar]

Seeing how VOY gets the most abuse from everyone while the other shows (even ENT) do not, the whole "you can criticize something while still liking it" claim doesn't hold up so well.

And until Saito said so, nobody in this thread agreed with the idea of VOY being able to even defeat a FRIGGIN PROBE SHIP.

 

[zar]

No, Anwar, it holds up just fine. There is no logical correlation whatsoever between that statement and VOY's relative criticism compared to other shows.

 

[Anwar]

VOY gets bashed the most out of all Trek series, even ENT. And most of the criticisms are moronic to begin with. The "can't beat the Probe" one simply being out of many. Just WHY is it so unbelievable that VOY could defeat a probe ship, hm? Give me a straight answer.

 

[kimc]

This thread's theme song.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJv5qLsLYoo[/yt]

Ooo...disco ball...shiny...

 

[RyuRoots]

Seeing how VOY gets the most abuse from everyone while the other shows (even ENT) do not, the whole "you can criticize something while still liking it" claim doesn't hold up so well.

Yes, it does. This is what's called a fallacy. Because it gets more flak than other shows, an individual can't like it while still having some issues with it?!

VOY gets bashed the most out of all Trek series, even ENT. And most of the criticisms are moronic to begin with. The "can't beat the Probe" one simply being out of many. Just WHY is it so unbelievable that VOY could defeat a probe ship, hm? Give me a straight answer.

Alright, I'll play along. Who said that under no circumstances can Voyager defeat a probe ship? Hm? I know I never said it, and I don't recall anyone else saying so, but if I've just missed that post, please quote it for me.

 

[Saito S]

Aside from the good points RyuRoots made...

VOY gets bashed the most out of all Trek series, even ENT. And most of the criticisms are moronic to begin with. The "can't beat the Probe" one simply being out of many. Just WHY is it so unbelievable that VOY could defeat a probe ship, hm? Give me a straight answer.

See, this is the problem, Anwar. You do not have the standing to demand a "straight answer" to why it's so unbelievable that VOY could trash a Borg probe, because no one ever said it WAS unbelievable!

Upthread, I said plainly (at your request) that it WAS fine that VOY destroyed a Borg probe. But this is what you're not getting: I never said otherwise to begin with. Not just in this thread, but EVER. In fact, I've never seen ANYONE make that claim. Not just on the TrekBBS, but EVER. You assert that we all said this thing we never said, then demand we explain our position, ignoring the fact that no one ever took said position in the first place.

All of that said, many people - including myself - felt that VOY itself - meaning, the show as a whole - mishandled the Borg on many - but not all - occasions, resulting in them being weakened as a villain. Part of this WAS due to the sheer number of times they were used, granted. So in that sense, I partially agree with claims you have made: while I feel some shoddy writing was also to blame, the fact is that using the Borg SO MANY TIMES over the course of several seasons of TV was a recipe for disaster. That said, I reject your claims about WHY they used the Borg so many times, your "they had no choice" idea. Network meddling played a role; lazy and inconsistent writing, and a lack of cohesive vision between the various VOY writers, all played a much, much larger role.

And finally, all of THAT said, gonna try this one more time:

Saying "the show on the whole mishandled and weakened the Borg" DOES NOT equal "Every Borg ep was terrible. Voyager should NEVER NOT ONCE have been able to defeat them."

 

[Kelthaz]

Sorry for the interruption. I know there's debate going back and forth, so please disregard my opinions as necessary.

Oh no you don't. I want to make sure everyone in this topic, and the entire Voyager forum, reads what you just posted.

You perfectly answered a question in 600 words what dozens of people have not been able to do in 447 posts. As a moderate fan of Voyager I completely agree with what you said and I think even Voyager haters would completely agree with your post. Excellent post.

Now I just need to copy that to notepad.

 

[zar]

VOY gets bashed the most out of all Trek series, even ENT.

I never denied that. I said it doesn't affect the validity of the statement that it's possible to criticize something you like. The fact that you think it does shows that you're fundamentally confused about logic.

Just WHY is it so unbelievable that VOY could defeat a probe ship, hm? Give me a straight answer.

For pity's sake, nobody said it was unbelievable. You "inferred" that based on statements that meant nothing close to that. Either you're making up strawman arguments, or you actually believe that's what we're saying (which makes me truly wonder if you are sane). Let's get this straight; no one is at all appalled by the concept of Voyager being able to defeat a tactically weaker ship. NO ONE. They also don't hold any of the other outrageous opinions you have attributed to them, but I'm not going to list those one by one to appease you. So just assume that nothing represents anyone's opinion unless they have explicitly stated it. From now on, please prove that the opinions you are replying to actually exist by quoting them. And don't exaggerate them. Is this too much to ask?

 

[Admiral Shran]

Seeing how VOY gets the most abuse from everyone while the other shows (even ENT) do not, the whole "you can criticize something while still liking it" claim doesn't hold up so well.

Well, seeing as how I like VOY and yet criticize it, YOUR claim does hold up so well.

Hell, I like ENT and yet criticize it. I like TNG and yet criticize it. I like DS9 and yet criticize it. I even criticize TOS and yet like it.

 

[Anwar]

Alright, I'll play along. Who said that under no circumstances can Voyager defeat a probe ship? Hm? I know I never said it, and I don't recall anyone else saying so, but if I've just missed that post, please quote it for me.

Darkwing Duck implied it in his "emasculated" post. And until he clarifies that he wasn't including the probe moment as well, I'm sticking it in there.

VOY did not "kick the Borg's ass all the way to the Alpha Quadrant". That's hyperbole. In Scorpion the 8472 beat them up (which I know is considered heresy, but deal with it). Dark Frontier, they didn't defeat the Borg they just distracted them. In "One", they didn't do jack sh*t to the Borg it was One (who was a super-advanced MegaBorg) who destroyed the Sphere. In "Unimatrix" it was the Borg Resistance that saved them.

Hell, the ONE AND ONLY TIME they destroyed a major Borg vessel on their own was in "Endgame" and that was with weaponry specifically meant for destroying the Borg from decades in the future. If Quantum torpedoes in VOY's own time can seriously damage a Cube then super-weapons from 3o years in the future can do more.

Yes, the VOY crew were never scared of the Borg and I admit that it was bad direction but the ENT-E crew weren't all that afraid either.

Yes, the Doc found a way to retard the assimilation process but frankly given how assimilation is done with nanites it can't be that hard and it was inevitable it would happen. Plus they already had access to more Borg information than the rest of Starfleet thanks to "Scorpion", Seven's own nanites, and "Dark Frontier".

Continued use of the Queen? If you're going to have the Borg be an actual presence in the story, and not just some plot device that flies around shooting things or getting shot at, then you need individual characters. And not just some mouthpiece droid but ones with actual personality. As it is, the Borg are just fundamentally BORING as anything other than some big plot device that shoots and kills people. It's why "Scorpion" (even if you don't like it) needed Seven, BOBW needed Locutus, Q Who? needed Guinan and Q as observers to the situation, "I, Borg" needed Hugh to be individual, "Descent" needed Lore, Hugh, Crosis and the independent Borg, etc.

 

[RyuRoots]

Alright, I'll play along. Who said that under no circumstances can Voyager defeat a probe ship? Hm? I know I never said it, and I don't recall anyone else saying so, but if I've just missed that post, please quote it for me.

Darkwing Duck implied it in his "emasculated" post. And until he clarifies that he wasn't including the probe moment as well, I'm sticking it in there.

I'll be honest, I stopped reading right here. He implied no such thing, and said no such thing. Until you stop putting words in people's mouths, I cannot take you seriously. He doesn't need to clarify anything since HE NEVER SAID THAT.

 

[Saito S]

Darkwing Duck implied it in his "emasculated" post. And until he clarifies that he wasn't including the probe moment as well, I'm sticking it in there.

I'll be honest, I stopped reading right here. He implied no such thing, and said no such thing. Until you stop putting words in people's mouths, I cannot take you seriously. He doesn't need to clarify anything since HE NEVER SAID THAT.

This. And...

VOY did not "kick the Borg's ass all the way to the Alpha Quadrant". That's hyperbole.

Of course it was hyperbole. So is "VOY emasculated the Borg." No one is trying to imply that they LITERALLY "emasculated" Borg drones, nor does that automatically mean "every single Borg ep was crap." See how this works?

In Scorpion the 8472 beat them up (which I know is considered heresy, but deal with it).

NO IT IS NOT CONSIDERED HERESY. Stop saying that. No one here has a problem with Scorpion. It is still, to this day, considered one of the best VOY eps and one of the best Borg eps by the vast majority of Trek fans. People LIKED 8472 (though many didn't like what was done with them far later in the series; different topic), and LIKED the fact that this crazy enemy showed up out of nowhere and started giving the Borg a pounding. YOU deal with THAT.

Yes, the VOY crew were never scared of the Borg and I admit that it was bad direction but the ENT-E crew weren't all that afraid either.

This is the crux of it for me. It has less to do with how many Borg ships VOY defeated, or in what way, or whatever, and more to do with an attitude. It at times felt like they were like "Borg? Oh, those guys? Pffft, yeah, big threat. But thanks for reminding me about their existence; we need some spare parts. Let's go hunt us some Borg ships." Whereas in TNG, they acted like the Borg were still at all times a major threat. They didn't "act scared" (most of the time), because we are talking about professional military officers. But they treated the Borg as a very serious threat that was never to be taken lightly. Whereas VOY, I felt, lost that; they treated the Borg like just another random hostile alien species that they could handle easily enough.

 

[firecrackerrrr]

I watched Voy almost since when it originally aired but truth be told, I didn't watch much of it after it ended except for a very few reruns I caught. About a month ago, I downloaded some of my favourite episodes. I'll buy it, no worries, I'm a student though and needed to see if I'd love it as much as I did back then. Janeway was my role model (and I at least partially blame her character for the fact that I'm a physics student today) but for some reason I just thought I'd grown out of it and that the series wouldn't really stand the test of time. But now that I've rewatched my favourites and am in the process of rewatching the entire series (Im at season 4 now) I have to say I really don't get the hate. I love this show with all my heart.

As of late, my favourite shows have been Six Feet Under, Sopranos, Californication, Dexter...that kinda stuff. But Voyager had that je ne sais quoi among Star Trek shows for me. While the writing wasn't ALWAYS the best (but honestly, all I'll say to that is TNG Season 1.) the chemistry between some of the main characters is fantastic and very different than on any of the other ST shows. Ahhh who knows, maybe I'm just nostalgic and slightly biased. But it'll always be my favourite show.

 

[zar]

...it can't be that hard and it was inevitable it would happen...

Look, nobody cares about that. Again you're missing the point. Just like with the infinite torpedo thing, it doesn't matter whether it can be technically explained away. If it hurts the story it just shouldn't be there in the first place. I don't care if it's "inevitable" that the Borg will become non-threatening, it doesn't change the fact that portraying them that way is a step in the wrong direction as far as creating good TV.

And once again, no one ever complained about this. Once again you're replying to an imaginary argument.

 

[Anwar]

They were able to study Crusher's logs on Picard's assimilated body, they got valuable data studying Seven, they got even more from Borg technology recovered in "Scorpion" and "Dark Frontier" and the Doctor's method of blocking assimilation was only TEMPORARY.

You say you wanted more continuity, the defenses they had from the Borg were BASED in continuity and yet you STILL complain?! God, exodus was right. It's just "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" with anything Voyager ever did. Nothing would ever shut you guys up.

It's also based in continuity they would fear the Borg less, seeing how the Federation survived every Borg attack without much in the way of real loss (yes, there were the 40 ships but they even acknowledged that they'd be back up within a year). So if they win every time, and don't really lose anything in the process then it's fully within reason you'd come to see said foe as less powerful than you did before.

It's like DS9. They were freaked by the Dominion at first, then as the show went on they saw them just as another foe who could be beaten. Single Dominion vessels weren't fear-inspiring and it was only in those major battles that there were serious fears.

And until he says otherwise, Darkwing duck's statement is a blanket statement surrounding all Borg appearances in VOY including the Probe. If he didn't mean it that way he should have been more clear.

 

[RyuRoots]

They were able to study Crusher's logs on Picard's assimilated body, they got valuable data studying Seven, they got even more from Borg technology recovered in "Scorpion" and "Dark Frontier" and the Doctor's method of blocking assimilation was only TEMPORARY.

You say you wanted more continuity, the defenses they had from the Borg were BASED in continuity and yet you STILL complain?! God, exodus was right. It's just "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" with anything Voyager ever did. Nothing would ever shut you guys up.

It's also based in continuity they would fear the Borg less, seeing how the Federation survived every Borg attack without much in the way of real loss (yes, there were the 40 ships but they even acknowledged that they'd be back up within a year). So if they win every time, and don't really lose anything in the process then it's fully within reason you'd come to see said foe as less powerful than you did before.

It's like DS9. They were freaked by the Dominion at first, then as the show went on they saw them just as another foe who could be beaten. Single Dominion vessels weren't fear-inspiring and it was only in those major battles that there were serious fears.

And until he says otherwise, Darkwing duck's statement is a blanket statement surrounding all Borg appearances in VOY including the Probe. If he didn't mean it that way he should have been more clear.

And no one disputes any of these things.

That's very rude, Anwar. But your wording aside, just because they had defenses that my have technically made sense doesn't necessarily mean that they're satisfying or that no one had problems with them; if you didn't, that's okay.

Actually, it was always a big deal when the Borg showed up in TNG, and it was always portrayed as such. And I really have to disagree with you on DS9. The Dominion were formidable ever since our first look at the Jem'Hadar right until the end. In fact, I'd say that's one thing to the writers' credit.

And as far as the bolded part...he simply did not say these things, nor did he imply them. I do not understand why you want to say so badly that he did. You're twisting what he said to mean something else.