Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[ramonasno]

Ok, the year of hell thing. I was dissapointed that they did a reboot on that. For the first time everybody was suffering, and I got more of a DS9 feel to it(that it's not one happy society after all)

But I have the feeling that an important thing is forgotten in this discussion; Because of the lack of an arch within the show, every episode was watchable on its own. This made VOY a show that also non-trekkies (yes they do exist) could watch, and could get more interested in Star Trek. For me, something similiar happened, and I am glad to now understand and viewed all the Star Trek series and films. Voyager gave me a quick look into starfleet; So there's this federation, different races, they have codes etc.

I read in some post here about how it must feel if you actually like VOY and all these people come and rant about the same issues over and over again. Well, it feels ok actually. I am not going to hide the fact that I loved VOY and that it is one of my favorite shows?
I actually just recently saw the Trekkies movies, and was blown away with the banding and friendship there was between all the trekkies. Here in the Netherlands there aren't that much real fans, and the few people that do like Star Trek are happy to know one and another, instead of trying to put a show down because it wasn't what they wanted.

Every show I've watched did stuff that I didn't like:

I wanted Sisko to end up with Kira, just for the fun of it
Quark and Odo could be a cute gay couple
as a matter of fact, I wanted gay couples to begin with?

I wanted Janeway to become real friends with the crew, like Ransom(without the killing beings thing)
I would like it if in VOY and DS9 female crew could wear a dress just because I like dresses
I want a whole series about the Academy
I just didn't really like Troi and her weird relationship with Worf. And I don't have a really good reason for that!

I am biracial, I wished there were more biracial characters in the shows
I am bisexual, I wished there were more bisexual characters in the shows.
i wanted to see a toilet
I actually liked Porthos and Wesley(I said it!)

But it's not MY show, there are writers who are writing the show as they please, and there's no real right or wrong in that. It's just how they think the show should go. And ofcourse everybody wants something else from a show, cuz you're trying to reflect it on your own standards and believes, but just because something isn't that, doesn't make it wrong?

 

[ramonasno]

Forgot to say: In holland the VOY sucks discussion does exist, also on forums where VOY is seen as the lowest kind of Star Trek. But me and my friends and family love it!

Just saying this before everybody thinks that over here we all have the same opinion, we don't, but I just happen to know more people that do like VOY than don't.

 

[Anwar]

Scorpion was a great start, but...well...

That's what happens when you use an enemy which requires a lot on cannon fodder to remain threatening, and then have no cannon fodder. This isn't like if VOY was being tracked by 2 Jem'Hadar bug fighters since it's plausible for VOY to trick and destroy them. There's no way VOY could take on a Borg Cube and win without some contrivance. And Winning is all they can do since they can't outrun the Borg.

 

[Anwar]

I see him being frustrated with the shows constant lack of change, as well as the working environment on the writing staff, but nothing about how "nothing in the show was real." Do you have a link to what you're referencing?

"Lack of change" means the same as "nothing was real", since he thinks ever last little thing would have to change every episode.

Of course, he didn't do that on BSG and no one cared.

Huh?

VOY's audience thought it was dumb how the VOY aliens kept showing up, but have no problem with the Cylons continuing to track the Galactica fleet. Double standard.

That doesn't seem likely. He does complain that the Maquis were thrown into Starfleet uniforms and afterwards treated as if they had been Starfleet officers from day one, but that's hardly what you're saying.

Okay, he couldn't stand that the Maquis and Fleeters could ever work together.

Anyone who read his exit interviews know that what frustrated him about the show was the lack of continuity and consequences, precisely the same thing many fans of the show have said was their primary gripe with Voyager, and one of the real strengths of BSG.

So Moore wanted the show to be a serialized mess wherein every single episode for 7 seasons straight led directly into the next with no break time or time jumps between episodes, and for the cast to be a bunch of weaklings who let every single last thing get to them. BSG did the reset button too, and no one cared there.

It's the same thing with the "Failed wormhole" stories. If VOY did them then the audience hates it because they knew they would fail, if they never did any of those stories then the audience just complains they should've run into a wormhole or something.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[exodus]

...especially BSG. Which, for the umpteenth time, was deliberately modeled as an anti-Voyager. Falling for that ploy is gullible. Defending it is ill-mannered.

Battlestar Galactica is often compared to Star Trek: Voyager, sure, and for good reason. Galactica used several writers involved with Star Trek (including TNG, DS9, and VOY). The basic premises of both shows are the same: a starship, cut off from the society it came from, searches for the planet Earth. Of course, that's radically simplifying the premises of both shows.

But deliberately modeled as an anti-Voyager? You'll have to find an interview, podcast, or some sort of comment by Ronald D. Moore or David Eick to support that claim. Both were very active on the internet during the show's production, so it shouldn't be hard, if it was said. You could point to this interview, but that doesn't seem to be what Moore is saying. He does state that Battlestar Galactica was produced with the intention of being an "anti-Star Trek" series, but he's talking about the whole franchise, not singling out Star Trek: Voyager.

Rather, when Moore points out the "lineage" of Galactica, he singles out DS9. He does indicate that he would have taken VOY down a darker path had he been given the reigns, but not to the extent of Galactica. Certainly his brief experience there influenced him (who would claim otherwise?), but hardly to the point that he wanted to make a show that was the "anti-Star Trek: Voyager."

I don't know about the rest of you but working on a show in the same style of Voyager & then saying you tried to make it anti-Trek IMO is saying the same thing. If you know both shows, how could your mind not first think he was talking about Voyager?

 

[TheGodBen]

But I have the feeling that an important thing is forgotten in this discussion; Because of the lack of an arch within the show, every episode was watchable on its own. This made VOY a show that also non-trekkies (yes they do exist) could watch, and could get more interested in Star Trek. For me, something similiar happened, and I am glad to now understand and viewed all the Star Trek series and films. Voyager gave me a quick look into starfleet; So there's this federation, different races, they have codes etc.

This hits upon something I said in the DS9 forum a couple of days back; I see a lot of people on this board that say they got into watching Star Trek through watching Voyager, but very few people saying they got into it through DS9. Whether that's because DS9 is harder to get into due to its storylines and continual reference of past events, or whether it's because DS9 isn't on TV as much, I don't know, but going on anecdotal evidence, Voyager does seem to attract people into the franchise. Some of those people move onto the other shows and become a bit disillusioned with Voyager, others have trouble liking the other shows because they're not like Voyager.

Perhaps people are still being drawn into the franchise by TOS and TNG, but I don't see this because I don't read those forums much, but from what I've seen, the biggest draw over the last year or so was Star Trek 09, with Voyager in second place.

I don't know about the rest of you but working on a show in the same style of Voyager & then saying you tried to make it anti-Trek IMO is saying the same thing. If you know both shows, how could your mind not first think he was talking about Voyager?

Because the guy worked for 5 years on TNG, 5 years on DS9, and only 5 weeks on Voyager, so when he talks about Trek he's more than likely talking about the shows he worked on most. When RDM says that BSG is anti-Trek, he means that it's not about perfect, optimistic humans exploring the galaxy, it's about flawed, cynical humans struggling to survive. There's no aliens, there's no anomalies, it focuses a lot on internal politics... it breaks a lot of the rules and conventions that he found constricting on TNG and that he attempted to deconstruct on DS9. It's anti-TOS, it's anti-TNG, it's anti-Voyager, it's anti-parts of DS9 and Enterprise. The premise is similar to Voyager, but only because he was asked to create a show based on the original BSG. He didn't set out to create an anti-Voyager, he was given a premise (rag-tag fleet fleeing genocidal robots) and told to do what he wanted within the confines of that premise, and what he wanted to do was the opposite of what he was forced to do on Star Trek for 10 years.

 

[Anwar]

This hits upon something I said in the DS9 forum a couple of days back; I see a lot of people on this board that say they got into watching Star Trek through watching Voyager, but very few people saying they got into it through DS9. Whether that's because DS9 is harder to get into due to its storylines and continual reference of past events, or whether it's because DS9 isn't on TV as much, I don't know, but going on anecdotal evidence, Voyager does seem to attract people into the franchise.

When a show is hard to get into due to continuity, it's called Continuity Lock-out. It's partially why Farscape was canceled but brought back for a TV movie finale.

DS9 is on TV as much as other Treks, at least where I am. It was on SPIKE (shown in order) and now on SPACE, along with ALL the Trek shows actually. It's better practice these days to air a show in production order than it was back in the 90s.

 

[exodus]

But I have the feeling that an important thing is forgotten in this discussion; Because of the lack of an arch within the show, every episode was watchable on its own. This made VOY a show that also non-trekkies (yes they do exist) could watch, and could get more interested in Star Trek. For me, something similiar happened, and I am glad to now understand and viewed all the Star Trek series and films. Voyager gave me a quick look into starfleet; So there's this federation, different races, they have codes etc.

This hits upon something I said in the DS9 forum a couple of days back; I see a lot of people on this board that say they got into watching Star Trek through watching Voyager, but very few people saying they got into it through DS9. Whether that's because DS9 is harder to get into due to its storylines and continual reference of past events, or whether it's because DS9 isn't on TV as much, I don't know, but going on anecdotal evidence, Voyager does seem to attract people into the franchise. Some of those people move onto the other shows and become a bit disillusioned with Voyager, others have trouble liking the other shows because they're not like Voyager.

Perhaps people are still being drawn into the franchise by TOS and TNG, but I don't see this because I don't read those forums much, but from what I've seen, the biggest draw over the last year or so was Star Trek 09, with Voyager in second place.

It's due in part ti both TNG & Voy recieving heavy promotion. To this day TNG "Best of Both Worlds" is still considered one the of top most popular cliffhangers of all time next too "Who Shot J.R.?"
During Seven of Nine's introduction, here in NYC there wasn't a billboard, magazine cover or bus shelter that didn't have her photo on it. Due to it Seven of Nine is now a name & image associated w/ Trek. Through her, folks know of Voyager.
DS9 never got any promotion or recognition close to this, so it goes un-noticed by the public at large. There are hardly any pop referances or popular phrases to it like there is to the other Treks.
There isn't even as much merchendise for DS9 as there are for TOS, TNG & Voy.

 

[ramonasno]

, Voyager does seem to attract people into the franchise. Some of those people move onto the other shows and become a bit disillusioned with Voyager, others have trouble liking the other shows because they're not like Voyager.

And other, like myself, just like Voyager for what it is, and love DS9 just as much

Maybe it's just me, but I actually like the fact that Voyager is more of a ' soap' trek, you can just watch an ep, miss one because you've got a party and then fall back in to it. And with DS9 that's different, and i guess it is a continuity lock out , because I once accidentally missed some ep in the third season, and I really didn't get it anymore. But I love the whole mystery of the show, the politics.
But still, I think it's fun that all the shows are different, and have their own unique way of telling a story. And for me, I apparantly like soaps and long detailed mysteries


(TNG was nice too, love it, happy I watched it, just don't have a special 'band' with it. TOS had his great episodes for me, and some I didn't really get, but that's probably because I'm from a different era and not American?

 

[ramonasno]

During Seven of Nine's introduction, here in NYC there wasn't a billboard, magazine cover or bus shelter that didn't have her photo on it. Due to it Seven of Nine is now a name & image associated w/ Trek. Through her, folks know of Voyager.
DS9 never got any promotion or recognition close to this, so it goes un-noticed by the public at large. There are hardly any pop referances or popular phrases to it like there is to the other Treks.
There isn't even as much merchendise for DS9 as there are for TOS, TNG & Voy.

I have never, ever , seen a billboard of Star Trek here. I live in Amsterdam, and I can't even remember there was a poster or billboard of ST09 anywhere....
Here in Holland I have never seen a poster of Seven of Nine, but on TV there were commercials about Janeway Aren't we a nice country that doesnt need sex to sell

 

[exodus]

During Seven of Nine's introduction, here in NYC there wasn't a billboard, magazine cover or bus shelter that didn't have her photo on it. Due to it Seven of Nine is now a name & image associated w/ Trek. Through her, folks know of Voyager.
DS9 never got any promotion or recognition close to this, so it goes un-noticed by the public at large. There are hardly any pop referances or popular phrases to it like there is to the other Treks.
There isn't even as much merchendise for DS9 as there are for TOS, TNG & Voy.

I have never, ever , seen a billboard of Star Trek here. I live in Amsterdam, and I can't even remember there was a poster or billboard of ST09 anywhere....
Here in Holland I have never seen a poster of Seven of Nine, but on TV there were commercials about Janeway Aren't we a nice country that doesnt need sex to sell

No.


......but I do love a country where I can smoke weed.

 

[ramonasno]

Hmm a poster is actually the Dutch word for billboard (if anybody didnt get my post..)

 

[kimc]

Voyager is an abortion and anyone who thinks otherwise is just lying to themselves.

Do you actually mean aberration? If so from what? Perhaps you mean abomination? Sorry, couldn't get past that one!

As for Moore being "anti-Voyager" with nuBSG personally I think he was anti-Trek in general. From listening to all his podcasts (yes, I'm that obsessed) I heard him referencing Picard, Enterprise, etc more often when referencing what didn't work in Trek with him. Sure, he redid some aspects like the J/C of the show (Adama/Roslin) got together but he never cared for the concepts of super-technology (transporters, replicators, etc) and aliens.

 

[ramonasno]

Ok, I have neve watched an esisode of BSG. I don't even know what it's about (apparently I'm a ST purist) Am I missing out? Yep, off topic. I know

 

[Anwar]

Moore never liked writing about aliens.

And he wanted to do Star Trek.

Boggles the mind.

 

[exodus]

Moore never liked writing about aliens.

And he wanted to do Star Trek.

Boggles the mind.

 

[Praxius]

This hits upon something I said in the DS9 forum a couple of days back; I see a lot of people on this board that say they got into watching Star Trek through watching Voyager, but very few people saying they got into it through DS9. Whether that's because DS9 is harder to get into due to its storylines and continual reference of past events, or whether it's because DS9 isn't on TV as much, I don't know, but going on anecdotal evidence, Voyager does seem to attract people into the franchise. Some of those people move onto the other shows and become a bit disillusioned with Voyager, others have trouble liking the other shows because they're not like Voyager.

Just for the record, DS9 was what got my wife into Star Trek and is still her favorite after also going through TNG and Voyager. While TNG was a bit hard to get into for her in the first couple of seasons and their dragged out, over-glorified manner they had..... it's her second favorite due to the depth the characters had and how they evolved over the seasons like in DS9...... with Voyager, we both found that for the most part, the crew of Voyager in the end of the show were not much different then what they were when the show first started off.

I can't even list off all the contrasts and evolutions each character had in DS9, but in TNG, Picard probably had one of the biggest character changes of all of them on the show, and Worf probably had more character development on the show then Data did.... and so on.

By the final season of Voyager, Kim was still the same over-optimistic do-gooder he was in season one, Chakotay was still the same guy in season one who's soft spoken with a tough attitude but no balls when it came to challenging Janeway...... Neelix in Season 7 was the same neelix in season 1, Torres changed a bit and evolved, but not by much.... Paris was still the same guy as in season 1, although he did get married and was going to have a baby, and learned the wonderful world of duty and starfleet honor.... he was still the hot head fly-boy from season one who didn't like to take orders he didn't agree with and wasn't the last person to stand up and issue his problems with something.......

I mean with TNG and DS9, if you look at the characters from the first seasons and then jump to seasons 7, you can see a dramatic change through the characters and their personalities...... one could argue Seven was one on Voyager who changed a lot over the seasons, but in honesty, she didn't really evolve that much either, and her sudden mood shift in the final episode was a little dramatic compared to how she was before that.

For me, it just wasn't well thought out.... it was entertaining, but the structure of the overall show just didn't seem to be as solid as TNG or DS9.

just my opinion though.

 

[AuntKate]

I watched DS9 faithfully until the independent station here went to NBC and started putting DS9 into whatever late-night slots were left over. I tried to tape them, but they were not always on exactly when they were supposed to be. After I missed a couple of episodes, I was lost and stopped watching.

We may complain about the "old fashioned" stand alone series, but they really are more accessible in reruns than the series with longer story arcs.

 

[ramonasno]

But, AUNTKATE, I don't know watch to say other than: Watch DS9 in the proper order! It's really good, you're missing out!! (oh my, I'm getting all enthusiastic now...)

 

[TheGodBen]

It's due in part ti both TNG & Voy recieving heavy promotion.

I'm referring to recent converts. I notice a lot of people that have caught some repeats of Voyager and they join the board to discuss it and ask about the other series. I don't notice many people saying that they caught some repeats of DS9 and they were hooked, usually people get into DS9 after having watched one of the other series. Perhaps this is down to brand recognition that's stuck in people's consciousness from the 90s, but it could be down to DS9 being a harder show to dip in and out of.

Ok, I have neve watched an esisode of BSG. I don't even know what it's about (apparently I'm a ST purist) Am I missing out? Yep, off topic. I know

Basically, robots called Cylons annihilate the human race and 50,000 humans in a rag-tag fleet, headed by the Battlestar Galactica, try to escape the Cylons and find the mythical planet of Earth. It's a bleak show, which is what you should expect from a show about the genocide of a species. There's no aliens, just humans and Cylons, and the fleet doesn't do any exploration except to find resources. The show focuses on the politics of the fleet and the personal lives of the characters, and they're not a particularly happy bunch.

It's one of my favourite shows, so I clearly think that it's worth it. It falls apart in the aspect of the mythology; they claimed that the Cylons had a plan and they invented a convoluted back-story for them that doesn't make much sense, and many people aren't happy with a revelation in the finale. But the show is at its best when dealing with the humans in the fleet and the measures they take to survive and get along with one another. The show also has some of the best visual effects you'll see on television, and one of the best soundtracks you'll hear.

Just for the record, DS9 was what got my wife into Star Trek and is still her favorite after also going through TNG and Voyager.

I'm curious, did you set out to watch it or did you see a couple of episodes and think it looked interesting enough to warrant a full viewing? Because I watched DS9 because I was a fan of TNG for as long as I can remember, so I watched DS9 when it was on and found myself hooked from season 4 on. I'm not sure if I'd have bothered watching it had I not already developed an affinity for the universe from TNG.

with Voyager, we both found that for the most part, the crew of Voyager in the end of the show were not much different then what they were when the show first started off.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Dr Shmully changed a lot over the course of the show, and Seven changed a fair bit. I think that Tom did change from being a bit of a hot-head smartass into a more mature man. B'Elanna had a lot of false starts and her episodes constantly repeated the same growth over and over again, but by the final season I think she had changed a fair bit. Janeway changed a little. Kes changed from an innocent young woman and became a bit more independent by the time she was kicked off the show.

Harry, Chakotay, Neelix and Tuvok didn't change much, especially Harry. Obviously, DS9 did a better job with character development, but I reject that Voyager had none whatsoever.