Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[Anwar]

-It had a flawed premise to begin with. Like LOST IN SPACE and GILLIGAN'S ISLAND, you knew they were never really going to get home, because if they did, the show would be over.

I was thinking the same thing, including those series dealing with dwindling supplies too.

I also don't like "voyage home" type stories. If they really wanted VOY to be away from known Trek space they should have had hem not know where they were and just have the show be set in one large region of space where they could keep using the same aliens for the whole series, like Farscape did.

 

[Anwar]

It's not my fault if the basic argument against VOY always comes down to "I wanted to see every last little moment of every single repair/resupply action and I wanted every single character on the show, including the 50 million recurring characters I also wanted, to ruminate on every single last little thing that happens to them." As well as "I wanted the Borg to be utterly invincible, unable to be defeated and unable to escape from" which would have ended the show in a nanosecond.

Drop those arguments, argue about something else, then you qualify for a "normal, intelligent" argument.

No. You are wrong. I have never seen any of these things said except by you.

So you didn't want to see resupplying/repairs on-screen in every episode, tons and tons of recurring characters eating up the budget and screentime, every single character being affected by every event in every episode and an invincible Borg?

 

[SRFX]

I had no problem with the amount of Borg encounters in Voyager. If anything, I was anticipating it quite highly once Caretaker aired, since I remember the Borg were referenced in TNG as coming from the Delta Quadrant.

Actually, the very first reference to the Borg being from the Delta Quadrant was in Star Trek: First Contact - which aired during Voyager's third season, between Warlord and The Q and the Grey.

Before that we had only seen the Borg seven times (Q Who, The Best of Both Worlds I and II, I Borg, Descent I and II, and Emissary).

In Q Who we only find out that the Borg are in system J-25 and that Guinan is familiar with the system. There's no reference to the Delta Quadrant (since the whole concept of dividing the galaxy into four quadrants wasn't introduced until the next season of TNG.) In fact, J-25 was only 7,000 light-years from Federation space.

In The Best of Both Worlds, I Borg, Descent, and Emissary, there is no reference at all to where the Borg come from.

At the time Voyager premiered, I seem to remember hearing that Voyager might encounter the Borg at some point since the Borg were from the Delta Quadrant. However, I have absolutely no idea where this information came from. I also think that the Delta Quadrant in First Contact, which is a simple throwaway line spoken by Crusher, was inserted to prepare the way for the Borg's introduction on Voyager, which would happen only a few months later.

Living in Australia would explain my reasoning in that case. Voyager didn't air until at about April 1996 in Australia and my Dad and I relied on Channel 9's screening of the show because we were too cheap to buy all the VHS releases.

However, Australia was reasonably close to America in the release of First Contact, and I remember reading background information for FC in the Official Australia Star Trek Magazine that explained where the Borg came from.

So whilst I had already seen VOY season 1 before First Contact aired, I didn't get to see VOY season 2 until 1997, well after FC had been screened.

Also, amusing note. Channel 9's screening of DS9 and VOY was so badly mismanaged that I actually ended up seeing Endgame months before What You Leave Behind.

 

[TheGodBen]

The charges you would face would certainly be a lot less than if you had killed or hurt someone.

At best it would be reckless endangerment, at worst it would be attempted murder. Someone not dying does not excuse the crime, and Chakotay preventing the fissure from opening doesn't excuse Janeway for putting Lessing in harm's way in the first place.

I've not seen the Enterprise episode, but from the description here I don't see one bit of difference between what he did and what she did. So why the difference in your reaction to it, why is one excusable and the other not? The acts are comparable so it looks like a double standard from my POV.

Brit.

Either read my posts or don't, but if you're not willing to read them then don't comment on them.

I've already said that what Archer did was wrong, but what makes its dramatically acceptable is that he suffered because of it and struggled to live with himself afterwards. He even tried to go on a suicide mission because he was having trouble with his conscience. Just read this scene which happened over a year after the torture incident:

ERIKA: You all right?
ARCHER: I'm not even sure what all right means any more.
ERIKA: Want to talk about it? There's an old code among climbers. Anything that happens on the mountain stays there.
ARCHER: You want to know why I'm out here? I figured this is the last place I'd run into anyone who'd want to shake my hand or take my picture or tell me I'm an inspiration to their children. If they knew what I'd done...
ERIKA: You did what any captain would have done.
ARCHER: Does that include torture? Or marooning a ship full of innocent people? Because I don't remember reading those chapters in the handbook.
ERIKA: Where are you going, John? Are you going to go climbing in the middle of the night?
ARCHER: Why not?
ERIKA: It'd be a shame if you lost your footing. It's a long way down. But at least you wouldn't have to deal with these feelings any more.
ARCHER: Are you telling me I have some kind of a death wish?
ERIKA: You tell me.
ARCHER: All I'm trying to do is get away from you. I look at you, and I see the person I was three years ago. The explorer that my father wanted me to be. I lost something out there, and I don't know how to get it back.

The scene is damaged somewhat by the fact that they have sex and Archer feels better in the morning, but at least the writers made the effort to show that his past actions were haunting him. Torture doesn't just dehumanise the victim, it dehumanises the torturer too, and the writers on Enterprise knew that and incorporated it into Archer's character arc. The writers on Voyager pretended that it didn't happen at all.

She told Tuvok she had a plan. Turned out she didn't need the plan in the end.

I trusted her and so did Tuvok.

I didn't trust her and neither did Chakotay. What's your point?

It's an assumption you make because you know the type of person the character is. Janeway to the writers and the people who "love" her she is warm and caring also a very good judge of character. As a viewer I don't think it was completely necessary for the character to have to SPELL it out everytime. I don't understand why there needs to be so much explaination all the time.

I'm not talking about spelling it out, I'm talking about showing it and getting some drama out of the situation. If it happened, if Janeway did struggle with her actions and felt the need to talk with Lessing about it, I want to see it, not because I'm too dumb to figure it out, but because I'm interested in that story being told. I would trade a dozen anomaly-off-the-week episodes in order to get that good character story because that's what I want to see.

The episode in my opinion was fine the way it was. I don't need to see every detail, a little less talk is fine with me.

As the Beatles once sang, "A more conversation, a little less action please".

I think it was the Beatles.

 

[Galileo7]

-It had a flawed premise to begin with. Like LOST IN SPACE and GILLIGAN'S ISLAND, you knew they were never really going to get home, because if they did, the show would be over.

I was thinking the same thing, including those series dealing with dwindling supplies too.

I also don't like "voyage home" type stories. If they really wanted VOY to be away from known Trek space they should have had hem not know where they were and just have the show be set in one large region of space where they could keep using the same aliens for the whole series, like Farscape did.

VOYAGER might have been more embraced if it was not Lost In Space, but instead a planned mission into the Delta Quadrant...to explore strange new worlds......

 

[AuntKate]

"You may have had good reason to stage a little mutiny of your own" is pretty much an admission of guilt to me. And Chakotay's response (as well as Tuvok's) was pretty much an indication of trust.

There are always scenes I would have liked to see, and the meeting between Lessing and Janeway is one of them--if Lessing ever really felt that he was in danger. I would like, even more, to see a discussion between Janeway and Chakotay that wasn't being witnessed on the bridge by their subordinates.

And if you don't believe there is a deliberate parallel between the captains here, then how do you explain the fact that both captains find their ship's dedication plaque in the bridge's rubble? When Chakotay says, "Let's put it back up where it belongs," he is repeating the exact words that Janeway said to Ransom in "Equinox, Part 1." Janeway's reaction shows that she remembers the incident and, I think, knows how close she had come to being as far out of line as Ransom had been. Close, but not quite.

 

[Galileo7]

...
And if you don't believe there is a deliberate parallel between the captains here, then how do you explain the fact that both captains find their ship's dedication plaque in the bridge's rubble? When Chakotay says, "Let's put it back up where it belongs," he is repeating the exact words that Janeway said to Ransom in "Equinox, Part 1." Janeway's reaction shows that she remembers the incident and, I think, knows how close she had come to being as far out of line as Ransom had been. Close, but not quite.

That was a standout episode, as you perfectly explain, there is that fine line between chaos and order in the Starfleet ships lost in the Delta Quadrant.

 

[vas2009]

I didn't trust her and neither did Chakotay. What's your point?

My point is that Tuvk didn't just back away he trusted her judgment.

It's an assumption you make because you know the type of person the character is. Janeway to the writers and the people who "love" her she is warm and caring also a very good judge of character. As a viewer I don't think it was completely necessary for the character to have to SPELL it out everytime. I don't understand why there needs to be so much explaination all the time.

I'm not talking about spelling it out, I'm talking about showing it and getting some drama out of the situation. If it happened, if Janeway did struggle with her actions and felt the need to talk with Lessing about it, I want to see it, not because I'm too dumb to figure it out, but because I'm interested in that story being told. I would trade a dozen anomaly-off-the-week episodes in order to get that good character story because that's what I want to see.

That is where we are different. If I want drama and character stories I'll watch TNG (which I do like a lot) or 90210. I want ass kicking sci-fi and I don't mind reading between the lines there are only about 45 minutes to each episode

The episode in my opinion was fine the way it was. I don't need to see every detail, a little less talk is fine with me.

As the Beatles once sang, "A more conversation, a little less action please".

I think it was the Beatles.

I can't recall... but here you are... from a man who never felt the need to justify his actions to anyone.

I don't regret the past I was only trying to live for this moment. ~John Lennon

 

[SRFX]

As the Beatles once sang, "A more conversation, a little less action please".

Uh, that's an Elvis song.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You know that there's a fair chance that Janeway was turning Lessing on?

Tied up, threatened and abused.

Men pay good money for that these days.

Noah might have told her what she wanted because he was falling in love (lust?) with her if he understood her bluff that there was no real chance that he was in any danger?

 

[SRFX]

Guy Gardener: You are the best poster on TrekBBS. Don't ever change.

 

[vas2009]

You know that there's a fair chance that Janeway was turning Lessing on?

Tied up, threatened and abused.

Men pay good money for that these days.

Noah might have told her what she wanted because he was falling in love (lust?) with her if he understood her bluff that there was no real chance that he was in any danger?

I CERTAINLY WOULDN'T MIND

Hell I'd tell her all she wanted to know for a price

 

[Anwar]

I was thinking the same thing, including those series dealing with dwindling supplies too.

I also don't like "voyage home" type stories. If they really wanted VOY to be away from known Trek space they should have had hem not know where they were and just have the show be set in one large region of space where they could keep using the same aliens for the whole series, like Farscape did.

VOYAGER might have been more embraced if it was not Lost In Space, but instead a planned mission into the Delta Quadrant...to explore strange new worlds......

It would have been better if they didn't know where they were, and had to deal with the local major empires/federations around them (instead of just always being in empty space) for the entire show instead of always being on the move and never being able to flesh out their aliens.

 

[stj]

Er, when did this become about BSG?

Are you for real?

All that matters in the long run is the finished product.

This in reference to Voyager squandering its potential.

On the other hand, there is a finished product dedicated to living up to that alleged squandered potential, the new BattleStar Galactica.

And that's the connection. Since there are apparently too many clauses, let me rephrase. Voyager wasted the dramatic potential. It failed to focus on the personal lives of the crew, it failed to dramatize the inevitable conflicts between the crew (including mutiny,) it failed to show the misery, it failed to show how they survived, it failed to show Roddenberryan humanism failing (no, that's not how those people phrase it but they'll never give an honest or coherent account of what they object to and what they favor,) et cetera ad nauseam.

BattleStar Galactica used the opportunities Voyager passed on. The results were dire. BattleStar Galactica's miserable failure shows how the alleged opportunities were never opportunities, but dramatic traps. I can think of a great deal wrong with Voyager but this nonsense about squandered potential has nothing to do with its failures. Thus, discussions of Voyager always involve BattleStar Galactica, even if certain participants try their best to avoid acknowledging it. It's sort of a Banquo's ghost.

But I think you actually got that and just had trouble expressing your thoughts. I expect your real point was that you want to avoid discussing BSG's failure, despite its relevance, by pretending it isn't.

 

[Destructor]

BattleStar Galactica used the opportunities Voyager passed on. The results were dire. BattleStar Galactica's miserable failure shows how the alleged opportunities were never opportunities, but dramatic traps.

No offense meant friend, but I just can't take anything you say seriously after this, since BSG was a dramatic success, a critical success, and a financial success. And it totally ruled.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

VOYAGER might have been more embraced if it was not Lost In Space, but instead a planned mission into the Delta Quadrant...to explore strange new worlds......

Or the Gamma Quadrant for an automatic tie-in to DS9. I think that could've been great.

 

[LeadHead]

^ I agree that it would have been fantastic for it to tie in to DS9, but keeping 2 separate TV shows tied together like that would have been near impossible.

 

[YARN]

BattleStar Galactica used the opportunities Voyager passed on. The results were dire. BattleStar Galactica's miserable failure shows how the alleged opportunities were never opportunities, but dramatic traps. I can think of a great deal wrong with Voyager but this nonsense about squandered potential has nothing to do with its failures. Thus, discussions of Voyager always involve BattleStar Galactica, even if certain participants try their best to avoid acknowledging it. It's sort of a Banquo's ghost.

Voyager improbably produces torpedoes and shuttle craft. BSG improbably creates a viper factory to replace its store of ships and magically cures Roslin of cancer. If anything, the two show have too much in common in certain aspects. Both wound up chickening out on delivering the goods.

For two seasons, at least, BSG was one of the best shows on TV.

Again, the episode "Year of Hell" doesn't prove that they took the correct road, but rather that they missed it IMO.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

It's not my fault if the basic argument against VOY always comes down to "I wanted to see every last little moment of every single repair/resupply action and I wanted every single character on the show, including the 50 million recurring characters I also wanted, to ruminate on every single last little thing that happens to them." As well as "I wanted the Borg to be utterly invincible, unable to be defeated and unable to escape from" which would have ended the show in a nanosecond.

Drop those arguments, argue about something else, then you qualify for a "normal, intelligent" argument.

Since no one has been making those arguements, you must be in the wrong thread...

Back to Janeway and Equinox. I just realized something: Federation Law and Starfleet regs say that a Starfleet officer who commits a crime in the territory of an alien race is subject to that race's laws. By regulations, Janeway should have turned those responsible for slaughtering the aliens over to THEM to deal with.

Then stripped Equinox for parts.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

-And lastly, the whole "Kirk & his crew would be thrown into the brig today" scene in the Sulu episode I found REALLY insulting and disrespectful to TOS.

Oh God was it ever...but it fits with Picard's attitude in towards Spock in Unification ("There's no place for this sort of 'cowboy diplomacy' anymore..."), and his and Geordi's initial attitude towards Mr Scott in "Relics".

The only show (set after Kirk's era) that got it right was DS9, and only in the later seasons with TAT. The set up of the MU that Kirk made things WORSE that happened earlier in the show smacked of the same sort of TOS bashing that TNG got up to and Voy followed.