I don't think that B4 had the processing power to "become" Data. If you take all my memories and copy them into someone with a brain disorder, would it still be "me"?
Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?
- Thread starter Mr Light
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I don't think that B4 had the processing power to "become" Data. If you take all my memories and copy them into someone with a brain disorder, would it still be "me"?
Yes, absolutely crazy. We'd never see something like that on TOS. Not in a million years.
"So the transporter splits Kirk into two Kirks, one good and one evil, see? Or maybe this mad scientist builds an exact robot duplicate of Kirk. Or there's this crazy guy in a lunatic asylum who can make himself look like Kirk. Or maybe Kirk's crazy ex-girlfriend switches bodies with him. Or maybe there's this hot alien chick in a Klingon prison who can turn into a copy of Kirk. And then they go to this other dimension where Spock has a beard!"
It was OK, but not great. I agree as said above that First Contact was the best TNG movie, and that Generations was good.
IMO, it simply had a weird plot. A Picard evil clone would have worked better if he actually commandeered the Enterprise, nobody initially suspected, and used the ship to plot the UFP's destruction. The finale could have been good real Picard vs. evil clone Picard in Engineering, and before clone Picard can destroy the warp core Data sacrifices himself. this would have no Tom Hardy, and Sir Patrick playing a double role. lol..
IMO, it simply had a weird plot. A Picard evil clone would have worked better if he actually commandeered the Enterprise, nobody initially suspected, and used the ship to plot the UFP's destruction. The finale could have been good real Picard vs. evil clone Picard in Engineering, and before clone Picard can destroy the warp core Data sacrifices himself. this would have no Tom Hardy, and Sir Patrick playing a double role. lol..
He's not Data. Data died a noble death. What was left over was just a kick in the crotch to anyone who liked the character. He became most human when he faced his own mortality and opted to give his existence for another, but wait, here comes a carbon copy to take his place and cement him as being nothing more than a machine who can be downloaded into a new body whenever its convenient/contrived/convoluted.
Data's death on the Scimitar saw the character arc come to a nice, poignant end. After the memorial with the senior staff there was no need to do anything more with his story, rubbing B-4 in our faces was an affront that left a bitter taste in the mouth as it was obviously a way to set things up for another film. In a way I'm happy it bombed, as I can imagine Commander Maddox returned and had B-4 shipped off to his lab to be taken to pieces and studied further.
You're right that he's not Data. But I think that was the point. He represented a tie to Data and I think some really great storytelling was dismissed by the novel writers by writing him off as being moved off the Enterprise.
I had absolutely no emotional reaction whatsoever to Data's death. The entire movie, including the death of Data, fell utterly flat to me. I had a greater reaction to Sarek's death in "Unification" than I did to Data's death in "Nemesis."
All the other stuff aside, I'm not a fan of Tom Hardy in this movie. I just didn't believe that he was Picard's clone.
(I didn't like his performance in Dark Knight Rises either. It seemed like he was riffing on a bad Patrick Stewart impression.)
As for Data's arc, it just wasn't done well. I guess that's what happens when you let the actors write the script.
That said, it's a Star Trek movie. It's better than nothing.
(I didn't like his performance in Dark Knight Rises either. It seemed like he was riffing on a bad Patrick Stewart impression.)
As for Data's arc, it just wasn't done well. I guess that's what happens when you let the actors write the script.
That said, it's a Star Trek movie. It's better than nothing.
An even more interesting variation of that would be if the Romulan plan had been carried out...the Picard who'd commanded the Enterprise all those years was a sleeper-agent clone. The guy who'd spent the last 20ish years with the Remans was the original Picard, who'd become a rat bastard / lunatic. The clone Picard would overcome his conditioning and prove to be the true hero that everyone had always thought he was.
Hear, hear.
I always thought it sounded like a bad Connery impression....
There's about a million good jokes here, but I can't choose just one. You're making this too easy.
I've long disliked what the comicbook and novel writers subsequent to NEMESIS have done with B-4. To me, it seems uncharitable somehow for them to simply suggest Data "overtook" B-4 and basically came back to life by killing B-4 and asserting himself through B-4's body.
In my view, it would have been much better for his data transfer to help kick in B-4's own ability to grow and develop, but to still keep B-4 as very much his own character, as distinct from Data as Data is from Lore. Use it as a way to keep the Soong android stuff alive in the show, but reboot the concept by letting B-4 become something 'other than' Data. It'd give Spiner something different to play as well.
Like the other Soong androids, Data's memories can live on, but I'd be far more interested in seeing B-4 develop and grow for himself.
In my view, it would have been much better for his data transfer to help kick in B-4's own ability to grow and develop, but to still keep B-4 as very much his own character, as distinct from Data as Data is from Lore. Use it as a way to keep the Soong android stuff alive in the show, but reboot the concept by letting B-4 become something 'other than' Data. It'd give Spiner something different to play as well.
Like the other Soong androids, Data's memories can live on, but I'd be far more interested in seeing B-4 develop and grow for himself.
maybe a character with both personalities co-existing alongside each other in one body, sort of like joined Trill?
It would have been fun to open Nemesis with Tom Hardy as young Picard getting his heart stabbed. And then a nice transition from his face to Stewarts face.
And make the artificial heart thing one of the mentioned differences between Shinzon and Picard.
And make the artificial heart thing one of the mentioned differences between Shinzon and Picard.
I agree with most of your points
Both Worf and Wesley's uniforms were explained in the books (as was Lwaxana being missing)
Worf resigns as Ambasador (Alexander takes over) and rejoins Starfleet. I think partly thanks to Worf having to betray Martok in the books, partly thanks to missing the action.
She managed to crash the ship. That's her calling card
I wish this speech from the books had been in the film
Both Worf and Wesley's uniforms were explained in the books (as was Lwaxana being missing)
Worf resigns as Ambasador (Alexander takes over) and rejoins Starfleet. I think partly thanks to Worf having to betray Martok in the books, partly thanks to missing the action.
She managed to crash the ship. That's her calling card
I wish this speech from the books had been in the film
1. The books were published in 2004, in part as an effort to bridge the four-year gap between INS and NEM, and explain some of the gaping continuity errors; the books would have been unavailable to audience members puzzling over these things in December 2002.
2. Most people don't read the books, nor should they have to go out and spend money on a miniseries of tie-in novels in order for said movie to make sense. It should do so on its own, and if it can't, then perhaps it has earned its shitty reputation after all.
I've fallen out of love with Trek Lit, so had no interest in reading the books that bridged the gap (do they also explain why Riker wasn't promoted earlier, or why it took him and Troi four years to eventually get married, or why the crew seemed surprised about being naked at a Betazoid wedding--they were told about it in "Haven"?).
So in my head Worf is still the Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire, he opted for full uniform in honour of his friends wedding and then took a few days leave from his post to catch up with his former comrades and got caught up in the 'adventure', after the film ended he returned to Qo'noS.
I think so, and why he took the Titan when he said in Generations he wanted the big E.
There was an event that spurred the marriage to happen, yes.
Four years isn't that long though. However 15 years of living and working together is a bit longer
It also explains Daniels (the Enterprise security chief) and Perim (the conn officer from Insurrection) went after Insurrection, and where the new security chief was. As a senior crew member you'd expect them to have been on the ship.
I don't recall the specifics, but looking at just the film, it's entirely possible the crew forgot a passing reference from 15 years earlier, especially as they may well have wiped much of season 1 and season 2 from their minds
It helps that the Madden scene was deleted, in that Worf was still on the bridge overseeing repairs, and having some uppity cadet out-smarting him in typical "lets ridicule Worf" fashion. Likewise the Wesley deleted scene which had him definitely part of starfleet.
PICARD: Mr. Worf? This is slightly...awkward, but several members of the crew have complained about the fact that you're continuing to wear that uniform when you're not actually in Starfleet anymore. I mean, ceremony is all very well and good, but...do be a good chap.
Meh... I'm glad that wasn't in the film.
Yeah, the speech is weird for some reason. Too fan-serving? Like he watched a re-run of his own show.
