Why Is "Into Darkness" So [imagine a different, more accurate past participle here]?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by TedShatner10, May 20, 2022.

  1. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But enough about Search for Spock :whistle:
     
  2. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I thought that fight scene was amazing, personally.
     
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  3. Saul

    Saul Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Watched 2009 once, Beyond once. ST:ID three times.
    I don't get the criticism. One scream isn't going to ruin a movie for me. Making the character Khan is fine with me and not "out of ideas" because it's literally a reboot of the franchise, bringing back the entire TOS crew is OK but to bring back their greatest villain is lame?

    Couldn't the same criticisms be said of Star Trek 09?

    Again, same could be said of the first movie.


    In my own opinion what hurt the film was the 4 year wait. The 2009 movie was a hit and they didn't capitalize fast enough on that.
     
  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    100% this. To me, if they wanted to fully reboot the franchise then they should have gone all in.
     
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  5. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I thought she had been sick longer than Khan Harrison had been out of stasis. But maybe I made that up in my head 'cannnnnnon.'

    Kor
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't recall the film addressing it. It's possible, and given that both Khan and the girl's dad work for S31 it's certainly possible Khan found out about the girl's illness through office gossip or hacking personnel records or what-not, but it does seem a bit coincidental.
     
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's a story. Of course there is coincidences. Khan leveraged it to his advantage. That's what villains do. Marcus leveraged Kirk too in the same film.
     
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  8. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Or Khan planned it. He does have augmented intelligence after all, and certainly wouldn't let a little girl or her father stop him from pursuing his goals.

    I'm not saying that's what did happen; I'm just raising the possibility, and I don't recall anything in the film that doesn't allow for it. Not sure why there's pushback against the notion.
     
  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I pushback because it's not evident right off in the film itself. It's an interpretation I don't automatically agree with because it assumes that Khan was basically poisoning this girl in anticipation of Marcus turning against him. Which, ok, maybe, Khan would do that. More likely, I can see Khan evaluating the Section 31 rosters, and making notes of whom he could manipulate how, possibly as a way to overthrow Marcus once the Vengeance came online. But, actively creating the situation? I feel that's going too far.
     
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  10. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I find it far more plausible he finds a situation he could take advantage of. I imagine Khan likely reviewed a list of Section 31 personnel looking for a weak link who could be compromised, and the perfect candidate in a guy with a terminally ill child who would presumably do anything to save his child. If Khan intentionally infected the girl, it leads to way too many questions such as why was this officer and his child targeted specifically? Was he the only Section 31 officer with children? The only one who cared about his children? If Khan's going to attack children to manipulate their parents, why go for a seeming nobody? Why not just target Admiral Marcus directly by attacking Carol?

    The story makes a lot more sense if Khan is just taking advantage of a preexisting situation rather than actually creating it himself.
     
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  11. donners22

    donners22 Commodore Commodore

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    I was referring to the hate being over the top, not the film. :)
     
  12. valden

    valden Commander Red Shirt

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    I feel it is a bad star trek movie, the characters all act like cool college teenagers. the kirk reverse death scene was unearned and made no sense.



    the film making is good through but as a star trek movie, it was a poor one.
     
  13. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    I don't think the film did anything to move the NuTrek story forward. You can go from Trek09 to Beyond without missing a beat. Plus Nero from the previous movie was already NuTrek's answer to The Wrath of Khan so why go that route again?
     
  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It literally has Kirk maturing in to CAPTAIN Kirk. So, yeah, it moves his story forward.

    As for going to the TWOK well again-well, Khan is the greatest Trek villain of all time. That's it.
     
  15. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Trek09 ended the same way, and unlike STID he wasn't easily duped into doing stupid missions.

    NuKhan's motivation for revenge all stemmed from assumptions that turned out to be incorrect. For someone who brags about having a superior intellect he sure makes a lot of dumb choices. And while we're on the subject of comparison, NuKhan is nothing like the original Khan... At all.
     
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  16. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    The phrase "superior intellect" comes from the 1982 movie alone, and in fact was never spoken by Khan. It was used once by Joachim, and then again by Kirk, as he goaded Khan into making a ... [ wait for it! ] ... dumb choice.

    We weren't on the subject, actually, but I see you getting out your Grievance Checklist™ again.

    Allow me to remind you that you've way overdone that shtick in this forum, to the extent that you were asked not to do it anymore. In here, I expect you to remember that and to conduct yourself accordingly.
     
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  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Except, he hadn't earned the center seat. The point of the film was that he was still young and making rash decisions, which he did in 09 and in ID. And he had to learn and mature.

    That's the point of the film. And I'll take that. Because there's way more too ID than just ridiculous TWOK comparisons.
     
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  18. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In NuTrek, getting command of a starship seemed more akin to getting assigned your own fighter plane in Top Gun.
    In terms of overarching narrative, it might have made more sense for Kirk to be a senior officer in Pike's crew at the end of ST09, and then he earns the Captain's stripes in the next movie, perhaps taking command after Pike's death for a special operation much like what happened.

    Kor
     
  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed. If I were to change one thing about ST 09 it would be the ending. Kirk taking the role of Pike's executive officer, and Spock offering his expertise as science officer.
     
  20. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    You could also count Khan's line about how his 'genetically engineered intellect' allowed him and his surviving followers to survive as long as they did on Ceti-Alpha V up to that point. I doubt he was referring to his intellect as just average. And while his superior intellect is not literally spoken aloud in Space Seed, it was definitely alluded to.

    McCoy: It will be interesting to see if his brain matches his body.
    Spock: Mister Khan was very thorough in his study of our tech manuals. - Brilliant. Every contingency anticipated.
    Khan: Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically.

    Mentality
    1. the capacity for intelligent thought.

    Cause here's the thing about Khan's "dumb choice". It wasn't meant to show that Khan doesn't have a superior intellect. It's there to remind the audience that despite being a superior Human, Khan is still Human. He let his pride get the better of him and no amount of superior intellect was going to change his mind. Even Spock predicted as much.

    Spock: I think we can guarantee that she will follow us Lieutenant. Remind me to explain to you the concept of the Human Ego.

    And that's why Khan works in Star Trek II. He is still superior in both strength and intelligence but also has weaknesses that make sense. Inexperience (Kirk: We're alive only because I knew something about these ships that he didn't.) and ego.
     
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