Why is Empire considered the darkest in the OT?

[Smellmet]

You see, I don't believe it is - I think it's traded on the scene in Dagobah for far too long, the one where Luke chops off 'Vader's' head revealing his own face. There's not really much else that's particularly 'dark' in the film - the violence in ANH is far more disturbing and graphic - Vader crushing the guys throat, Luke's Auntie & Uncle getting BBQ'd, severed arm, the torture droid (which is also a feature in ESB, granted). Also I find the Luke/Vader/Emperor scenes in ROTJ to be the darkest bits in the whole OT, so my question stands, why is Empire considered to be the darkest in the Original Trilogy? I think all three have their moments, and that's what makes these films what they are.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Luke loses a hand, Han is betrayed, the main rebel base is destroyed. Lots of setbacks for the heroes, and no real victories. Seems dark enough to me.

 

[Smellmet]

Luke loses a hand, Han is betrayed, the main rebel base is destroyed. Lots of setbacks for the heroes, and no real victories. Seems dark enough to me.

Yeah you're right, but all these years later after seeing all three so many times, I don't think it's any darker that than ANH, which has this grittiness the others struggle to match, everything seems to be riddled with danger in that film. Obviously taken as a whole you'd never consider ROTJ to be as dark, but the aforementioned throne room scenes are the darkest in the whole trilogy for me, and that (alongside the stunning space battle) redeems the film. I dunno. I see the first one as easily as dark as ESB these days.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

The good guys win at the end of ANH and ROTJ. That makes a difference.

 

[Smellmet]

I'll give you that. I guess it's more just a feeling I've developed down the years for the films, and my new found appreciation of ANH. I always thought ESB was the best one down the years but latterly I've really shifted over to ANH as my favourite SW movie.

 

[Kor]

In ESB, the Empire is beating the rebellion at every turn. Our heroes barely get away. The main hero is battered and bruised and finds out that one of the galaxy's evil overlords is his own flesh and blood. There is no victory for the rebellion and no celebration at the end of the movie. It's a downer.

Kor

 

[WarpFactorZ]

It's dark for the same reason November 2016 was dark. Evil prevailed, despite the efforts of the good guys, and it seemed like there was no hope left.

 

[fireproof78]

In ESB, the Empire is beating the rebellion at every turn. Our heroes barely get away. The main hero is battered and bruised and finds out that one of the galaxy's evil overlords is his own flesh and blood. There is no victory for the rebellion and no celebration at the end of the movie. It's a downer.

Kor

Pretty much this. The whole of ESB is ramping up from one attack and battle to the next. From Luke being attacked by the wampa, to the Empire's attack on Echo Base, the Millennium Falcon fleeing, and on and on.

The Vader reveal and the ending is incredibly depressing in light of the ending of the first film. Certainly each of the other films have their dark moments, but ESB ends on a down note, very much like a minor note in a song.

 

[Tallguy]

I can't argue with any one of the answers. (If you think November 2016 was as dark as The Empire Strikes Back you need to move to a place with actual tyranny. I've never lived in such a place and I hope I never will.)

I once told my brother that Star Wars was something like "light and exciting" and he immediately said "Alderaan". As a grownup the torture droid was dark as hell. But in 1977 (and as a kid myself) it was just the sort of thing that happened that sort of film. (I'm sure I'd seen an old serial or two. Or at least read enough comic books.) The individual events in Empire aren't really all that much darker than Star Wars. Sure the rebels are chased off of Hoth, but the entire crew of Princess Liea's starship are killed in the first ten minutes of Star Wars! As for the "I am your father" I never thought it was dark because I never believed a word of it. (James Earl Jones and I were apparently on the same page.)

But Star Wars ends with The Big Win. Empire doesn't. OTOH no major characters die in Empire. Star Wars has Owen, Beru, AND Ben! (There really isn't the same level of jeopardy or loss in Jedi as there is in the other two, is there?)

As a stand alone film the Rebels win everything at the end of Star Wars. There is no larger Empire to overthrow. The novel says that the throne room is openly flying flags of planets supporting the Rebellion because there is no fear of reprisal. John Williams ended the movie with Ben's theme because "all of his values had been restored." It was as much a fairy tale ending as Jedi.

 

[LJones41]

"The Empire Strikes Back" also seemed to feature - for the first time - the protagonists committing stupid and dangerous mistakes in which they pay for.

 

[fireproof78]

I can't argue with any one of the answers. (If you think November 2016 was as dark as The Empire Strikes Back you need to move to a place with actual tyranny. I've never lived in such a place and I hope I never will.)

I once told my brother that Star Wars was something like "light and exciting" and he immediately said "Alderaan". As a grownup the torture droid was dark as hell. But in 1977 (and as a kid myself) it was just the sort of thing that happened that sort of film. (I'm sure I'd seen an old serial or two. Or at least read enough comic books.) The individual events in Empire aren't really all that much darker than Star Wars. Sure the rebels are chased off of Hoth, but the entire crew of Princess Liea's starship are killed in the first ten minutes of Star Wars! As for the "I am your father" I never thought it was dark because I never believed a word of it. (James Earl Jones and I were apparently on the same page.)

But Star Wars ends with The Big Win. Empire doesn't. OTOH no major characters die in Empire. Star Wars has Owen, Beru, AND Ben! (There really isn't the same level of jeopardy or loss in Jedi as there is in the other two, is there?)

As a stand alone film the Rebels win everything at the end of Star Wars. There is no larger Empire to overthrow. The novel says that the throne room is openly flying flags of planets supporting the Rebellion because there is no fear of reprisal. John Williams ended the movie with Ben's theme because "all of his values had been restored." It was as much a fairy tale ending as Jedi.

No one dies, but the group is fractured by the loss of Han Solo. Also, Luke loses a hand.

The losses are little more personal than just Leia's Alderaan crew getting slaughtered

 

[Smellmet]

I dunno, I always thought the violence in ANH was far stronger than anything else in the franchise, and I would class Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru's death as both personal and extremely graphic. I guess we all have a different definition of 'dark' - for me this hard edge to ANH makes it every bit as dark as ESB, which like ROTJ had it's violence toned down a lot from the first instalment.

 

[Reverend]

"Darkness" isn't necessarily measured by violence, explicit or otherwise; It's usually more a matter of tone.

Star Wars is at it's core a fairy tale and those always (the good ones at least) have a good measure of dark and light.
It's just that ANH is balanced more towards the light adventure end of things with moment of darkness to give the drama meaning, while tESB is more balanced towards the dark with moments of character based comedy to add some levity. The distinction is in the balance of tone, not the minutia of the content.

To put it in more literal terms: ANH was a quest to save the princess. One full of highs, lows, adventurous triumphs and an evil defeated. While tESB on the other hand was a perilous journey through the dark enchanted forest, filled with danger, mystery, introspection and a difficult choice made at a terrible cost. Those are both fairy tales, but of a different kind. Which of those would you nominally label as "the dark one"?

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, tone definitely is different from ANH to ESB, and ESB doesn't end with a triumphant victory. It's a To Be Continued of the worst kind, where a hero is captured, evil has won, and the rest of the party is on the run. In other words, the fellowship has been broken.

Also, I was thinking on this, and Empire doesn't ever give the heroes a chance to breathe or relax. They are constantly moving from one danger to the next danger, without a break or a reprieve. Even Cloud City, up in the clouds and light and airy, has an aura of menace, as C-3PO is mysteriously shot, with no explanation. Dagobah is dark and gloomy, and many of the set pieces are darker too.

Even Hoth has hidden dangers. Nowhere is safe for heroes, and thus, the audience cannot feel safe.

 

[Kor]

Fairy tales in their original forms tended to be rather gruesome, maybe as a way to scare kids into behaving properly, lest they meet grim consequences.

Kor

 

[Tallguy]

Damn skippy they were. That's why where Owen and Beru got bumped off we didn't bat an eye. Terrible things are supposed to happen to young heroes.

 

[Reverend]

And let's be honest; a pair of smoking skeletons isn't all that graphic for young children.
In a way it's more graphic for adults since we're better able to imagine the bit in-between them being alive and being a collection of smouldering bones.

 

[Smellmet]

And let's be honest; a pair of smoking skeletons isn't all that graphic for young children.
In a way it's more graphic for adults since we're better able to imagine the bit in-between them being alive and being a collection of smouldering bones.

I found that scene very disturbing as a child.

 

[Reverend]

I found that scene very disturbing as a child.

And I found Slimer and the Terror Dogs bloody nightmare inducing--literally! I still remember the one I had of the terror dog creeping up the stairs and onto the landing outside my bedroom when I was about five or six.
That doesn't mean it was over the line though. Obviously you don't want to traumatise children but by the same token it's just as much a disservice to overly sanitise things, lest it come as a total shock when something awful really does happen. Indeed, that's the whole point of most fairy and folk tales to begin with.

The trouble is there's no all encompassing standard, no matter what the movie classification people think. Some kids can handle strong imagery, others will freak the fuck out at the mummy in Abbot & Costello.

 

[Smellmet]

Either way, the 'U' certificate it was awarded at the time is ridiculous in hindsight. Should be a 12 these days.

I actually appreciate the harder edge to the violence in ANH these days though. It makes the world it's painting seem more real and gritty somehow.