Why is Empire considered the darkest in the OT?

[Reverend]

Either way, the 'U' certificate it was awarded at the time is ridiculous in hindsight. Should be a 12 these days.

I wouldn't say so. For one thing certification has always been wildly inconsistent and very subjective from one film to the next. I've seen things in 'PG's that are worse then some '15's and '12's that are more tame than some 'U's I've seen. Have you ever read the kind of guidelines the censors supposedly go by? The more they try to quantify and specifically define where "the line" is drawn the more ridiculous and futile the whole thing seems. It's like the Zeno's Paradox of blood splatter and nipple exposure.

For another, it's just a pair of smoking skeletons. You see more shocking imagery in cheap carnival haunted house rides and as Halloween decorations. Really speaking, the severed arm in the cantina is way more explicit since, you know it's a bleeding, severed appendage of a (presumably) still living person.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Damn skippy they were. That's why where Owen and Beru got bumped off we didn't bat an eye. Terrible things are supposed to happen to young heroes.

About this: it took me a good 20 years to finally see their smouldering corpses next to their trashed homestead. Not sure why -- mental block, I suppose.

 

[Smellmet]

I wouldn't say so. For one thing certification has always been wildly inconsistent and very subjective from one film to the next. I've seen things in 'PG's that are worse then some '15's and '12's that are more tame than some 'U's I've seen. Have you ever read the kind of guidelines the censors supposedly go by? The more they try to quantify and specifically define where "the line" is drawn the more ridiculous and futile the whole thing seems. It's like the Zeno's Paradox of blood splatter and nipple exposure.

For another, it's just a pair of smoking skeletons. You see more shocking imagery in cheap carnival haunted house rides and as Halloween decorations. Really speaking, the severed arm in the cantina is way more explicit since, you know it's a bleeding, severed appendage of a (presumably) still living person.

Obviously I'm not a censor, it's just an opinion. Clearly the severed arm is more in your face graphic, but as a child it never seemed to bother me as much, I think primarily because the dude deserved it. The skeletons though I've got to disagree with you on, yes they're just smoking skeletons but the overall scene painted was one of brutality and recently burnt flesh, there's nothing as grim as this in the franchise until ROTS. The throat crush is the biggest thing that freaked me as a child. That noise was and still is horrible. In my personal opinion ANH is a 12/12A by today's standards, and the other two I would put as PG.

 

[fireproof78]

Either way, the 'U' certificate it was awarded at the time is ridiculous in hindsight. Should be a 12 these days.

I actually appreciate the harder edge to the violence in ANH these days though. It makes the world it's painting seem more real and gritty somehow.

Which was Lucas' goal the whole time, despite the more fantasy elements. The hard grounding of combat and the characters gave the foundation to a larger fantasy.

However, individual mileage will vary. I didn't find ANH nearly as disturbing when I was younger as I did ESB and the various things going on in that film. I still don't enjoy it very much, save for some choice scenes, but I would put ANH ahead of it in the queue every time over ESB.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah I never found Star Wars all that scary as a child, at least not in a "hide behind the sofa from the Daleks" kind of way.
Believe it or not several bits in Flash Gordon really got under my skin though. The giant man eating plant thing with the crab legs. the "stick your arm in this hole" scene and the way matey-bloke with the gold face's eyes bugged out and he melted...Brian Blessed's bare legs...
Actually now that I think about it, for such a campy and lighthearted movie it was downright horrific in places.

 

[Set Harth]

If you think November 2016 was as dark as The Empire Strikes Back you need to move to a place with actual tyranny.

Analogy. It can be a difficult concept.

 

[Smellmet]

Yeah I never found Star Wars all that scary as a child, at least not in a "hide behind the sofa from the Daleks" kind of way.
Believe it or not several bits in Flash Gordon really got under my skin though. The giant man eating plant thing with the crab legs. the "stick your arm in this hole" scene and the way matey-bloke with the gold face's eyes bugged out and he melted...Brian Blessed's bare legs...
Actually now that I think about it, for such a campy and lighthearted movie it was downright horrific in places.

Isn't it strange what kids find scary - Jaws out of The Spy Who Loved Me scared the hell out of me as a child. Had nightmares of him chasing me well into my 30's.

 

[Kor]

Age ratings/certifications are funny things.

I've noticed DVD releases of the slow-paced anime movie "Grave of the Fireflies" marked as recommended for kids. But it's one of the most grim and depressing movies I've ever seen, and some of the frank depiction of wartime injury and sickness is quite nauseating.

Kor

 

[JediKnightButler]

Most of the movie is pretty tonally dark as compared to the other two movies. The Rebels get driven off Hoth, Han Solo, et al is captured and he is taken by Boba Fett

You see, I don't believe it is - I think it's traded on the scene in Dagobah for far too long, the one where Luke chops off 'Vader's' head revealing his own face. There's not really much else that's particularly 'dark' in the film - the violence in ANH is far more disturbing and graphic - Vader crushing the guys throat, Luke's Auntie & Uncle getting BBQ'd, severed arm, the torture droid (which is also a feature in ESB, granted). Also I find the Luke/Vader/Emperor scenes in ROTJ to be the darkest bits in the whole OT, so my question stands, why is Empire considered to be the darkest in the Original Trilogy? I think all three have their moments, and that's what makes these films what they are.

Visually tonally, and thematically, it is much darker and moodier than any of the other films, which seemed to "balance", if you will, the lighter and darker elements. ESB was pretty unrelentingly dark and oppressive, with few moments of levity (i.e. Han and Leia and the Droids).

I know that we're just talking about OT but ESB may have since been outdone in terms of "darkness" by ROTS and Rogue One.

 

[MacLeod]

Either way, the 'U' certificate it was awarded at the time is ridiculous in hindsight. Should be a 12 these days.

I actually appreciate the harder edge to the violence in ANH these days though. It makes the world it's painting seem more real and gritty somehow.

I doubt it would get a 12 if it was resubmitted for a certifcate today. If anything things have move in the opposite direction what was once an 18 might be a 15 today. Of course some older films might recieve a 12/12A today instead of the PG they recieved when original released as the 12/12A certofcate didn't exist at the time.

 

[VulcanMindBlown]

Supreme Leader Snoke may become even darker than anything in the original trilogy... he could be from the Unknown Regions and be a literal spawn of the dark side... just a speculative theory put out by the YouTube channel Stupendous Wave.

 

[fireproof78]

Supreme Leader Snoke may become even darker than anything in the original trilogy... he could be from the Unknown Regions and be a literal spawn of the dark side... just a speculative theory put out by the YouTube channel Stupendous Wave.

A vergence you say?

 

[arch101]

It isn't, after ROTS. However, I think of it as the "art film" of the series. Certainly the best directed episode and remarkable that such a big film feels so intimate in many of its scenes. It still manages to stand out as a little bit different when you watch them all.

 

[Timby]

The main hero is battered and bruised and finds out that one of the galaxy's evil overlords is his own flesh and blood.

Not only that, he finds out that his mentors, who are ostensibly good guys, are in fact lying pieces of shit who are actively manipulating him in an effort to get him to murder his own flesh and blood.

 

[Jedi Marso]

All the points posters have been making are good points. For myself, I consider Empire the darker of the two for this reason:

When SW ended, I was elated and wanted more.
Whe ESB ended, I couldn't believe it was ending like that, I was devastated by the state the heroes were left in, and I wanted more so badly that I was on pins and needles for 3 years.

 

[suarezguy]

I don't think any of the SW films are outright gritty but to me Empire does feel the darkest and most grim, the good guys are basically either losing or barely surviving throughout (I think it kind of goes a little too far in that, especially in Luke's training, and overall prefer the original although Empire is still great). That Han remains captuted and Luke's inspiration is the bad guy, trying to corrupt or kill him, and his mentors lied makes for a particularly strong ending.
It also, despite the presence of Yoda, I think has the most emphasis on the technology and military conflict aspects and the least on the Force, Jedi and fantasy aspects.

Yeah you're right, but all these years later after seeing all three so many times, I don't think it's any darker that than ANH, which has this grittiness the others struggle to match, everything seems to be riddled with danger in that film.

There's good drama but generally more of a sense of fun than danger, especially from the music (like when the Falcon is tractored-in or Han yells they're gonna have company), and comic relief from the droids also feels more prevalent.

 

[Jayson1]

As for points for the first being more dark we got to consider
1 Solo shoots Greedo.
2 Leia didn't just loose her home planet but her adopted family I asume.
3Leia gets tortured by a horrible device that frankly I don't see how it could work and she still stays alive.
4 Obi One dies by Vader.
5 The rebels show racism by not giving Chewie a medal at the end.

Jason

 

[Jedi Marso]

5 The rebels show racism by not giving Chewie a medal at the end.

Jason

Adywan fixes that little injustice in his fan edit.

 

[KennyB]

As previously noted, I think the main reason Empire is considered darker is the fact that it ends on a dark note. ANH and ROTJ end with celebrations.......ESB Luke is licking his wounds and Hans fate is unknown.

 

[Reverend]

As for points for the first being more dark we got to consider
1 Solo shoots Greedo.
2 Leia didn't just loose her home planet but her adopted family I asume.
3Leia gets tortured by a horrible device that frankly I don't see how it could work and she still stays alive.
4 Obi One dies by Vader.
5 The rebels show racism by not giving Chewie a medal at the end.

Jason

As has already been discussed, it not strictly a matter of content but of tone. Empire has by far the more sombre and desperate tone of the three.

Adywan fixes that little injustice in his fan edit.

FWIW Lucas addressed this way back in '77: -

“Chewbacca wasn’t given a medal because medals don’t really mean much to Wookiees. They don’t really put too much credence in them. They have different kinds of ceremonies. The Wookiee Chewbacca was in fact given a great prize and honor during a ceremony with his own people. The whole contingent from the Rebel Alliance went to Chewbacca’s people and participated in a very large celebration. It was an honor for the entire Wookiee race.”

So not so much racism as cultural sensitivity it turns out. Point is, it was a conscious decision based on how he'd conceptualised the Wookiees, which as it turns out is something he put quite a bit of thought into.