Unless TOS is deleted by watching Year One or SNW nothing is replaced.
Why have they marginalised Captain Pike and turned him into a weakling?
- Thread starter MrShinzoff
- Start date
Perhaps why there's a medal named after Pike. I don't recall one named after Kirk.
On SNW, he mainly keeps getting killed or his ship blown out from under him.
But seriously, the narrative thread running through Kirk's appearances on SNW is various ways in which he's becoming more fit for command through his experiences and interactions with the Enterprise crew. And the producers have planted the germ of the idea that a major reason he will succeed Pike as captain is because Pike wants him as his replacement, as a result of what Pike saw in Future Kirk in "A Quality of Mercy."
But seriously, the narrative thread running through Kirk's appearances on SNW is various ways in which he's becoming more fit for command through his experiences and interactions with the Enterprise crew. And the producers have planted the germ of the idea that a major reason he will succeed Pike as captain is because Pike wants him as his replacement, as a result of what Pike saw in Future Kirk in "A Quality of Mercy."
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I dont think I would call him weak necessarily. I've just seen him as having a different, more collaborative style of command, more like Archer in some ways.
However, he does seem to get that "deer-in-the-headlights" look at times when under attack. And to be completely honest, if I'm a junior officer at the helm when the crap hits the fan, Una is probably the first person I would find.
However, he does seem to get that "deer-in-the-headlights" look at times when under attack. And to be completely honest, if I'm a junior officer at the helm when the crap hits the fan, Una is probably the first person I would find.
The immediate aftermath of Pike learning his fate was a big part of his arc in season 1 and he came to terms with that. Retreading that would be redundant and he's had plenty of stuff to do as captain but perhaps because there's no currently goal in mind it feels like he has been sidelined or perhaps because some shows have so utterly failed and giving everyone on their ensemble a fair amount of development even with 26 episodes it feels like there's a significant reduction because we are so used to the captain being the focus and everyone else just set dressing.
But weakling? I don't know what show you're watching.
But weakling? I don't know what show you're watching.
He seems to have accepted his fate but that streak of wanting to protect others yet to risk lives still impacts him. I don't see him hesitant or weak but measured against a harsh truth that people will die, even as he slowly marches towards his fate.
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Thanks for the welcome and the thought! Appreciate both!
I’ll need to scour the board for a thread about M’Benga. I have stronger thoughts about him…
I think the Pike is weak takes are hilariously bad. YMMV, of course.
He froze for a second or two because he did not want to abandon Batel. Kirk fails to put his shields up in TWok, against protocols, and nearly gets everyone killed.
He froze for a second or two because he did not want to abandon Batel. Kirk fails to put his shields up in TWok, against protocols, and nearly gets everyone killed.
Looking at the marginalization aspect.
S1 was about Pike wrestling with his fate. His story was the overarching arc of the season and was the focus of the premiere and finale. Even so, his approach with the Romulans started a war while Kirk's more aggressive action stopped one (Vulcan Hello 2.0).
But outside of that, Pike was rarely the focus of the show. E2 was the Comet episode which was Uhura centric. E3 has Pike/Spock on the B plot again with Una the focus. E4 was straight space battle with Pike & La'An vs the Gorn. E5 was Spock Amok, Spock/T'Spring centric. E6 was a Pike ep, as the medical tech offered had to be tempting for him. But E7 he was B plot and off ship in Serene Squall. E8 was M'Benga centric. And E9 Hemmer/Uhura.
4 arguably Pike centered eps in S2, with his arc the main focus of the show.
S2 has Pike the focus in Lotus Eaters and Hegemony. Spock steals the ship in Broken Circle and the Chapel/M'benga warcangle comes in, Pelia introduced. Pike has a big role in E2, but that is all about Una (and a classic). E3 is also classic, but La'An & Kirk lead. Pike is central in Lotus Eaters. Charades is comedy and Spock centric, with Pike involved. E6 is Uhura/Hemmer. E7 is TOS and focused on the Lower Deckers. E8 is M'Benga. Mount cannot sing much so E9 was not gonna be his. But he is the focus in E10.
I thought S2 was better than S1, though it is close. The less Pike centric nature did not impact quality at all.
S3 has Pike the focus in E1. Or he is at least central. He comes up with the plan to sleep the Gorn. Hardly weak or indecisive. E2 is Spock/Corby/Chapel. E3 was pretty Pike centeic with him & M'Benga on the planet. E4 is the holodeck ep, which I thought was fantastic, BTW. Not Pike centric. E5, is not zoike centric, but also very good. E6 was classic ship battle ep. Though not Pike centric per se, Kirk is the one portrayed as indecisive here, and Pike gives him advice. E7 was the Beto doc ep. And E8 the comedy ep.
There are 2 eps left and Pike has been central to 2 of the first 8, with a big hand in another. I'd expect him to be central again in the finale, as the Patel thing has to wrap.
I do think S3 has been my least favorite so far, but the show is hardly in disarray. S1 & S2 were an extremely high bar to match. TOS couldn't put together 3 straight excellent seasons. TNG 3-6 is probably the best run. Or DS9 3-6. LD was awfully good consistently. ENT 3 & 4.
S1 was about Pike wrestling with his fate. His story was the overarching arc of the season and was the focus of the premiere and finale. Even so, his approach with the Romulans started a war while Kirk's more aggressive action stopped one (Vulcan Hello 2.0).
But outside of that, Pike was rarely the focus of the show. E2 was the Comet episode which was Uhura centric. E3 has Pike/Spock on the B plot again with Una the focus. E4 was straight space battle with Pike & La'An vs the Gorn. E5 was Spock Amok, Spock/T'Spring centric. E6 was a Pike ep, as the medical tech offered had to be tempting for him. But E7 he was B plot and off ship in Serene Squall. E8 was M'Benga centric. And E9 Hemmer/Uhura.
4 arguably Pike centered eps in S2, with his arc the main focus of the show.
S2 has Pike the focus in Lotus Eaters and Hegemony. Spock steals the ship in Broken Circle and the Chapel/M'benga warcangle comes in, Pelia introduced. Pike has a big role in E2, but that is all about Una (and a classic). E3 is also classic, but La'An & Kirk lead. Pike is central in Lotus Eaters. Charades is comedy and Spock centric, with Pike involved. E6 is Uhura/Hemmer. E7 is TOS and focused on the Lower Deckers. E8 is M'Benga. Mount cannot sing much so E9 was not gonna be his. But he is the focus in E10.
I thought S2 was better than S1, though it is close. The less Pike centric nature did not impact quality at all.
S3 has Pike the focus in E1. Or he is at least central. He comes up with the plan to sleep the Gorn. Hardly weak or indecisive. E2 is Spock/Corby/Chapel. E3 was pretty Pike centeic with him & M'Benga on the planet. E4 is the holodeck ep, which I thought was fantastic, BTW. Not Pike centric. E5, is not zoike centric, but also very good. E6 was classic ship battle ep. Though not Pike centric per se, Kirk is the one portrayed as indecisive here, and Pike gives him advice. E7 was the Beto doc ep. And E8 the comedy ep.
There are 2 eps left and Pike has been central to 2 of the first 8, with a big hand in another. I'd expect him to be central again in the finale, as the Patel thing has to wrap.
I do think S3 has been my least favorite so far, but the show is hardly in disarray. S1 & S2 were an extremely high bar to match. TOS couldn't put together 3 straight excellent seasons. TNG 3-6 is probably the best run. Or DS9 3-6. LD was awfully good consistently. ENT 3 & 4.
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For my money, and these tend to move a bit on rewatch and after some thought & reflection.
Again, YMMV, of course.
Top Notch:
1. S1E4: Momento Mori
2. S1E9: All Those Who Wander
3. S2E2: Ad Astra Per Aspera
4. S2E3: Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow
5. S2E5: Charades
6. S2E7: Those Old Scientists
7. S2E10: Hegemony
8. S3E6: The Sehlat Who Ate His Own Tail
Almost Top Notch
1. S1E1: Strange New Worlds
2. S1E3: Ghosts of Illyria
3. S1E5: Spock Amok
4. S1E6: Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach
5. S1E10: A Quality of Mercy
6. S2E4: Among the Lotus Eaters
7. S3E4: Space Adventure Hour
8. S3E5: Through The Lens of Time
Very Good
1. S1E3: Children of the Comet
2. S2E6: Lost In Translation
3. S2E8: Under The Cloak of War
4. S2E9: Subspace Rhapsody
5. S3E1: Hegemony, Pt II
6. S3E7: What Is Starfleet?
Good
1. S1E8: The Elysian Kingdom
2. S2E1: The Broken Circle
3. S3E2: Wedding Bell Blues
4. S3E3: Shuttle to Kenfori
Meh
1. S1E7: The Serene Squall
2. S3E8: Four and a Half Vulcans
Again, YMMV, of course.
Top Notch:
1. S1E4: Momento Mori
2. S1E9: All Those Who Wander
3. S2E2: Ad Astra Per Aspera
4. S2E3: Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow
5. S2E5: Charades
6. S2E7: Those Old Scientists
7. S2E10: Hegemony
8. S3E6: The Sehlat Who Ate His Own Tail
Almost Top Notch
1. S1E1: Strange New Worlds
2. S1E3: Ghosts of Illyria
3. S1E5: Spock Amok
4. S1E6: Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach
5. S1E10: A Quality of Mercy
6. S2E4: Among the Lotus Eaters
7. S3E4: Space Adventure Hour
8. S3E5: Through The Lens of Time
Very Good
1. S1E3: Children of the Comet
2. S2E6: Lost In Translation
3. S2E8: Under The Cloak of War
4. S2E9: Subspace Rhapsody
5. S3E1: Hegemony, Pt II
6. S3E7: What Is Starfleet?
Good
1. S1E8: The Elysian Kingdom
2. S2E1: The Broken Circle
3. S3E2: Wedding Bell Blues
4. S3E3: Shuttle to Kenfori
Meh
1. S1E7: The Serene Squall
2. S3E8: Four and a Half Vulcans
The serene squall was terrible. Out of all.the episodes I remember that one the least. When I watched it I was bored.
Let's not forget he knows his fate, so maybe the writers are having Mount occasionally play Pike struggling with anxiety and/or depression even though it's not specifically mentioned on screen. Or alternately having him just take life as it comes and not stress so much e.g. having more fun than other captains might while on duty. Who knows?
His ship and his crew did. He was kind of busy with Captain Batel.
Serene Squall is actually top notch S1 Captain Pike for me. He's off on his own thing but he's LEADING his own thing.
Spock Amok: Goofy hijinks episode. But Pike gets to be the man who will throw away a Starfleet treaty to protect his crew.
As opposed to Four-and-a-Half-Vulcans where Pike gets sidelined into his own thing while his Crew figure things out and deal with their own issues.
I will speak for All of the "It's a Weak Take" People here: This is not the complaint. You might not like the editing. It's fine - I get it, it's a TV show. It's the Big Dramatic Pause before they come back next season and leap back into action. (Which they did.)
Also: Batel? Didn't they also have a bunch of his bridge crew at that point?
(For myself: "Weak" is not how I would describe any of this, but I didn't name the thread.)
Pike being the touchy-feely Space Dad Captain Who Cooks is not a bug, it's a feature. The bug is that this season and to a lesser extent last season they are not letting him do his job.
He made the decisions , which is what captains do.
Unless they're the captain of Discovery.
Mainly, Chapel and Una were busy with Batel.
Well, mainly he hesitated to service the season cliffhanger.
With BOBW, we got the "Fire!" coitus interruptus, and then waited months to find out that Riker was shooting blanks and his order accomplished nothing.