Why First Contact is NOT a good trek movie (rant alert).

[Nardpuncher]

Picard got stabbed in the chest beating the crap out of Naussicans. It's not like he's never been violent and angry before.

But wasn't it that incident that tought him to be more careful and not so unruly?

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was the opposite. That incident taught him to take risks. Without fighting the Naussican, he remained a poor, forgettable little science officer.

OOps...yeah, you're right! Great episode that I haven't seen in a while ands it seems I also forgot the valuable lesson.

Still, I think making Picard act more like people think Kirk was like was a bad idea that failed.

 

[Tyson]

Dear OP: Poopsock harder.

 

[Myasishchev]

Yeah, for all Generation's faults, of which there are many, Soran wasn't one of them, and he's one of the reasons why I still kinda like the movie regardless of the fact it's objectively pretty bad.

Soran's a good idea for a villain, with some good lines and motivation and Malcolm McDowell, but he still isn't that good. His reasoning is completely preposterous - he allies with the Duras sisters and helps them get trilithium, fights the Romulans, anatagonises the Enterprise, sets up a way to get into the Nexus by annihilating a planet when, you know, he could fly into it. He's a little too small for his shoes of epic movie villain also, and I was sick of the 'dead wife' canard long before Nero came along. It worked for Khan, but that doesn't mean every Trek villain needs it and Khan had the added advantage of us actually knowing who his wife was (though, er, given the misogyny inherent in the character that might be a strike against... whatever, Soran still sucks...)

McDowell never manages to come off as menacing either, merely a petulant, irksome old man who's off on a daft scheme that a couple of other geriatrics need to thwart. If McDowell isn't creeping the hell out of your audience you're doing something rather wrong, really.

Well, he wasn't a great villain. But I thought he was decent. His actual plan was, indeed, pretty shitty, but the motivation was understandable. This in contrast to the Borg Queen, whose plan was not only shitty, but who had had motivations which were incoherent at best and at worst (boning Picard) really lame. And I'll freely admit that Nero suffers from bad motivation as well...

Trek villains are sometimes well-conceived in their motivations, but now that I think about it they often don't seem to have good plans. I think only with Khan, Kruge, V'Ger and Sybok did these two major aspects of a successful antagonist coincide. Maybe you're right.

Also, why is it both Soran and Nero have to spout 'badass' dialogue about James T. Kirk's role in history, anyway? Stupid time travel plots...

Dunno. Nod and wink to the audience, I guess. Kinda pointless.

 

[Kegg]

Well, he wasn't a great villain. But I thought he was decent. His actual plan was, indeed, pretty shitty, but the motivation was understandable. This in contrast to the Borg Queen, whose plan was not only shitty, but who had had motivations which were incoherent at best and at worst (boning Picard) really lame.

Fair enough, but Brutal Strudel hit the nail on the head a lot better than I articulated. The problem with Soran is, again, his inconsequentiality: Second fiddle to TNG's lamest pair (and B'Etor's, which were better); setting off some damn rocket and not getting to be all that terribly menacing or terribly anything. He's really just 'this guy, you know?' complete with a stupid twirly gun.

The Borg Queen is the personification of the Borg, the leader of a whole army of forces whose plans are epic in scope, in the sense they do want to crush the whole human race underfoot. It's cosmic, and what she's part of is clearly a Big Deal and not playing second fiddle to Klingons in a rust-bucket. Her plan and herself also may not make a whole lot (or any) sense, but the general threat of where she's coming from already raises her head, shoulders and spinal cord above Soran's limp would be supervillainy. Krige also gets better material to work with than McDowell did, IMHO.

Trek villains are sometimes well-conceived in their motivations, but now that I think about it they often don't seem to have good plans. I think only with Khan, Kruge, V'Ger and Sybok did these two major aspects of a successful antagonist coincide. Maybe you're right.

I'd dispute Sybok, but I have the intuition you're a TFF fan or something, so probably best for another page. Otherwise, yup.

 

[Too Much Fun]

but the general threat of where she's coming from already raises her head, shoulders and spinal cord above Soran's limp would be supervillainy.

I see what you did there.

 

[JarodRussell]

They even had the stupid ticking clock of death counting down to the time the big gun fires in the last two movies!

So had TWOK (Genesis Device) and TUC (assassin getting ready), so what?

 

[Myasishchev]

Well, he wasn't a great villain. But I thought he was decent. His actual plan was, indeed, pretty shitty, but the motivation was understandable. This in contrast to the Borg Queen, whose plan was not only shitty, but who had had motivations which were incoherent at best and at worst (boning Picard) really lame.

Fair enough, but Brutal Strudel hit the nail on the head a lot better than I articulated. The problem with Soran is, again, his inconsequentiality: Second fiddle to TNG's lamest pair (and B'Etor's, which were better); setting off some damn rocket and not getting to be all that terribly menacing or terribly anything. He's really just 'this guy, you know?' complete with a stupid twirly gun.

The Borg Queen is the personification of the Borg, the leader of a whole army of forces whose plans are epic in scope, in the sense they do want to crush the whole human race underfoot. It's cosmic, and what she's part of is clearly a Big Deal and not playing second fiddle to Klingons in a rust-bucket. Her plan and herself also may not make a whole lot (or any) sense, but the general threat of where she's coming from already raises her head, shoulders and spinal cord above Soran's limp would be supervillainy. Krige also gets better material to work with than McDowell did, IMHO.

Well, diff'rent strokes I guess.

Trek villains are sometimes well-conceived in their motivations, but now that I think about it they often don't seem to have good plans. I think only with Khan, Kruge, V'Ger and Sybok did these two major aspects of a successful antagonist coincide. Maybe you're right.

I'd dispute Sybok, but I have the intuition you're a TFF fan or something, so probably best for another page. Otherwise, yup.

Yeah, I always liked TFF, even though it looks like crap and has some silly bits, but I particularly enjoyed Luckinbill's Sybok. Other than V'ger, he's the only film villain who isn't out-and-out evil. He's definitely the only one who's actually a nice person, who just happens to have objectives at cross-purposes with our heroes. He's not even really unhinged or irrational. I mean, he seems a little crazy, but then we find God, and it turns out he wasn't delusional, just mistaken.

I also like the implication of Sybok's conception that Sarek keeps a Vulcan princess on the side for the pon farr days.

 

[Nardpuncher]

They even had the stupid ticking clock of death counting down to the time the big gun fires in the last two movies!

So had TWOK (Genesis Device) and TUC (assassin getting ready), so what?

You're really reaching. That's my point.

What do you want? Me to change my mind and say TWOK and TUC must now be bad movies also? They're not, while Insurrection and Nemesis certainly are.