Why don't the execs see it???

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by PeeWee's USS Lollipop, Feb 26, 2003.

  1. AboveAll

    AboveAll Vice Admiral Admiral

    Dec 26, 2002
    I'm going to say something that could be percieved as very sexist now.

    Trek is like a woman.

    When you first meet it, it goes out of its way to impress you. It takes you tp exciting places you have never been, shows you experiences you have never dreamed of, and makes you feel wonderful.

    After a while, you begin to notice you have been going to the same places, doing the same things over and over again, and the thrill begins to diminish. That is okay, however, because there is still a feeling of loyalty, and an effort is still being made to please you.

    A bit later, the monotony continues, and you start to ask questions like "why has it stopped trying", and "does it still care about me". You make every effort to make your opinion known, and stick around hoping things will turn around.

    Then, in an effort to reignite feelings of passion, it does little things like buy you gifts, prance around in slinky outfits occasionally, the occasional sexual fling - taking the least amount of effort to get you to stick around for a bit longer. You begin to think "does it even know me?".

    Suddenly it's put on some weight, no longer cares what it looks like, or how you feel. It begins to blame you for not feeling the same as you did at the beginning, contending that it hasn't change at all, but that you have. You think "what did I see in it to begin with".

    Then the harsh separation, leaving it asking "what happened?"

    Not a perfect analogy, but it works from my perspective. :p
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Hmm.. yeah, it could be! :mad:
    But it does remind me of an old boyfriend.... ;)
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    LOL :lol: !!! Yeah... this sounds like truth to me! :lol:

    I'm weirded out that Braga has said that this show would be different in style than previous Trek. Hey, I'm all for that! But let's face it... it's Voyager all over again when it comes to story structures and themes. It's rather like many past Trek stories back to TNG... I keep waiting for the thread that matches each ENT show to a previous Trek show. Someone go do that... bet you'll be surprised. ;)

    When they do go outside Trek stories... it's Enemy Mine and Con-Air. And Trek did these stories too if my memory serves. Or, they completely mess with the Vulcans to create a piss poor AIDS/GAY Rights allegory. Stigma stunk of 1980s After School Special the way it went from character to character that respectively played out thier allegorical roles like a high school 'issue' play.

    TOS did allegory up the yin-yang and did it well. Even with rather goofy ones like Nazi Revisionism... with Nazis in space! Heh heh... and Black on one side and White on the other people. But at least these stories made sense, were topical, and dramatic. The scene where Spock listened, behind a door out of sight, to the White on the Left side guy speak to the crew of his 'plight' put the PC heart bleeders in their place, and then Conservitives get thumped with the Black on the Left guy... really brill!

    The Execs really should watch the old TOS shows... then make a few calls. ;)
  4. James Dixon

    James Dixon Rear Admiral Newbie

    Jan 4, 2001
    Westwood, NJ, USA
    Well, you're not the only one to fall asleep during E... I don't want to brag but I've taped all the Trek episodes of all the Trek series, and E's right up there with V for putting me out...

    It's obvious that TPTB simply aren't learning from their mistakes and Simply Don't Care! E is just another series to milk the Trek franchise and they figure that so long as it's Trek, it's instantly got a loyal following of fans who'll support it regardless of how little work is thrust into it... It is Very Sad but also Very True!

    A few points...

    1. As with past Trek series, the Writing either makes or breaks the series... Special effects are secondary, and they've always been top-notch, but the Writing is what makes it worth watching... Sadly, E's had the worst writing of any Trek series... The plots are so dumbed-down, they're actually keeping with UPN's policy of writing for idiot viewers... Compared to TOS, TAS, and TNG, E's scripts look so unsophisticated and corny... TPTB don't see this or don't want to see this--they've just got a Tiny writers pool to deal with and they'd like to keep it that way... Especially when the creators of this series sometimes do the writing, directing etc... TOS had "morality" episodes many times, and they worked... Multiple plots going on which were Inter-related and smoothly melded together by the end of the episodes in a very satisfying manner... The characters were very well developed and worked together like a well-oiled machine... Voyager and Enterprise have none of this... I swear that Scott Bakula had more dialog in one episode of Quantum Leap than he's ever had in a full season of E! And the dialog that these poor actors are given to work with is so workmanlike it's pathetic! And am I the only person who finds the bickering between T'Pol and Archer from Day 1 onwards to be childish and annoying? Just compare this to the Spock-McCoy bantering of TOS and you can plainly see who this series is aimed at!

    2. Before this series even started I told myself, "These idiots are going to DESTROY Trek continuity and history!"--and that's Exactly what they've done! There is not a care in the world for them about it either! Rather than working back from "The Cage" they've worked back from "Caretaker"... As every episode goes by, it distances itself from TOS... Oh sure they might mention Cochrane but that's only 1% of the formula... The whole "Akiraprise" complete with V-era PADDs, voice-activated drink dispensers, heavy-graphics monitors everywhere, TNG-era style rank identifiers, TNG-era warp drive technobabble-galore--it all stinks of Who-Cares-About-TOS-Let's-Do-TNG
    forgetting the principle of this series being a prequel To TOS!

    3. As with 2, TOS looks bad with this series... The introduction of Cloaking Devices being commonplace, subspace radio without transmission delays (did any of these writers ever see "Balance of Terror"?), Ferengi, the planet Risa, Klingons (who look and act Just like Post-TOS guys), Vulcans (who act like anything But Gene's logical Vulcans), and Andorians (with blonde hair rather than white, with writhing antennaes)...NOTHING "feels" right or in place... The stars streak by as they do in modern TNG and V, the phaser beams look just like phaser beams--OK, they call em phase guns, which makes me wonder why Pike's crew are using Lasers... The impulse engines glow as they do on Post-TOS starships...

    There is nothing evident to me that ANYONE working on this series CARED to do research into the pre-TOS period of time... And it is getting Worse!

    IMHO, E is the "Galactica: 1980" of the Trek series... I like to think of it as being an alternate Trek timeline, rather like the "Mirror" universe...and not a part of mainstream continuity...
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I gotta admit... I can't disagree with what James Dixon talks about above. There are times I wonder if tptb aren't purposely injecting continuity breaks. perhaps to meet some story arc agenda. Though casual observation hints at a simple lack of thought and a stressed out and perhaps strung out writing staff. Things don't seem well on the ENt set. Just a feeling... I've no clue but when I see Romulans with invisibility shields and Ferrengi I gotta wonder. Now the Borg? It stinks of at least crass 'signature' FX thinking as opposed to considering the reality of the setting.

    It's a real wonder. :D
  6. James Dixon

    James Dixon Rear Admiral Newbie

    Jan 4, 2001
    Westwood, NJ, USA
    And I lay my money down that it won't end with the Borg... They'll probably introduce the Remans (which really wouldn't be bad for continuity) and ultimately the Cardassians... And I wouldn't at all be surprised if they do a revamp of the Gorns and re-introduce them! Of course they'll probably play dumb, as they did with the Ferengi, and claim that they never announced themselves by name or some such gimmick!

    You know, when you look at NX-01, what I find really troubling about it is HOW LITTLE THIS SHIP DIFFERS from the other Enterprises--and I'm not talking about the exterior "Akiraprise" design, but the Interior... Just take a look: artifical gravity, shields (OK, "polarized hull plating"), phasers (OK, "phase cannons"--they emit beams which look and sound Just Like 24th Century phaser beams), a transporter room (1 but ON SCREEN we saw only 1 in TOS), a bridge on deck 1(which looks too darn much like Voyager's--even the consoles Explode JUST like in the 24th Century!), Shuttlecraft (OK, shuttle pods, same thing), audio-visual Subspace radio (apparently instantaneous? Better than in TOS?), food replicators (OK, protein re-arranging thingies--same thing essentially), pulsing Engineering in the lower decks (complete with dilithium crystals, EPS conduits, and plasma-technobabble galore, which generates those streaking, 24th Century era, warp field effects), and modern tech-terminology no different than on TNG/DS9/V... Oddly enough, the one thing this ship DOESN'T have which other starship Enterprises have, is a Tractor Beam--Very odd since a tractor beam is essentially just a focused gravity beam, and they've got warp drive (basically gravitic) and artificial gravity: same technology...of course it's just there to showoff their CGI grappling device!

    The series is set a century before TOS, it's supposed to be a major Retro series... You'd think that the creators would have thought it out much better, especially considering the way NX-01 is praised as the first deep space exploration ship...

    Now, if I was given the task of designing this series, it really wouldn't strain my brain to have something like this... Start from a DY-series hull and add a warp nacelle or two, maybe rework the conning tower and plant a circular bridge module on there--no, better yet, Don't make it circular... Terminology/technology: lasers and/or particle beam cannons for ordnance... Maybe artificial gravity in only key locations, non-instantaneous communication with Earth, if they truly need a prototype transporter then why not make it look something like the teleport pod chamber in the remake of "The Fly"... Why not power the low-speed warp engines with Fusion reactors rather than matter-antimatter reactors? All the EPS crap and dilithium can be done away with--it's Far too modern... I'd even go so far as to do away with turbo lifts: it's a Small vessel, they can use gangways and ladderways... Shuttlecraft would of course be a necessity by why make em so standard? Maybe have them docked on the Exterior of the hull, rather like the way the travel pods docked in the movie series? It would save a great deal of interior space (needed since Food and supplies need to be stored in bulk rather than replicated) AND make them more susceptible to enemy fire...

    Hey, guys, I'm typing this up in real-time here on the spur of the moment... I'm not even paid to do it... Yet I feel like I've got a bigger brain in my skull than the entire creative crew at Paramount Pictures which helmed Enterprise!
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'm with you there. The designs and tech in the show are just what we have seen before. I'm completely baffled by this approch to the show. When I heard it was gonna be a prequel I envisioned all sorts of cool things... just like you mention here.

    Why is ENT just another 24th Century setting??? :borg:
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Actually, I'd say that their soup looks pretty, is made of pretty good ingredences, but tastes a little flat. :)
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I agree.
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Braga has stated, on more than one occasion, how excited he was to be able to Enterprise. He always felt so restricted with the 24th century format. Yeah right. I always felt it was just a cop-out for lack of imagination. :lol: :lol: :lol: It was because, as you pointed out, they're still there. :lol: :lol:
  11. slappy

    slappy Commodore Commodore

    May 10, 2001
    I disagree with many of these points. You can't just create a straight prequel series to TOS and make it work. You just can't. TOS aired in the sixties!! Some ideas just won't fly now. The tech on Enterprise looks very similar to the tech of today. We have plasma televisions and palm pilots. You can't start at the NCC-1701 and work backwards because you'd have a mess....giant box in space. How about the bellbottoms and sideburns too?

    You say no on this series bothered to do any pre-TOS research. Of course not! There is no pre-TOS. On one hand you fault them for not taking risks with tech, but on the other you fault them for being too risky with the Vulcans. You actually, if I can believe it, fault them for updating the look of farmiliar races? Heck, you even fault them for making the Klingons act like we now know Klingons act, instead of the bronzed Gladiators of the 23rd century.

    You fault them for doing things that make common sense. The impulse engines glow? Uh...what's it supposed to do? Transmission delays? We don't have transmission delays that bad NOW. Sure, part of what the show is about is working from TOS backward. I'd rather them take the approach they're using now and work from today FORWARD. Reasonable expectations may yield reasonable results.
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I agree. Everyone would have a hard time watching a Pre-TOS show that wasn't adjusted for the times.
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

  14. James Dixon

    James Dixon Rear Admiral Newbie

    Jan 4, 2001
    Westwood, NJ, USA
    Let me just state that I'm one of thse hardcore Treknical geeks who takes continuity very seriously... Nobody's saying that E should have a retro-60s look, but neither should it look like a cheap revamp of Voyager's sets snd tech--which it Does... Yes, they would have to balance E between the technology of Kirk's era and today's technology... But if you go back and re-read my earlier posts you'll see quite clearly that it's evident that the creators and crew on E simply didn't give a damn...
    When I speak of transmission delays I'm of course talking about subspace radio... Many times in TOS the ship was days if not weeks or months out of range of contacting Star Fleet Command... This is the dawn of subspace radio and E should have similar problems... The more that aliens are "updated" the more you distance the fans from the aliens' original appearance... But this aside, why not give the Klingons and Andorians tails, extra eyes and other "modern" makeup advances just for the sake of showing it all off? For that matter, aren't the Vulcans quite OVERDUE for the makeover? If you go to all these extremes, why not just ditch the Trek universe altogether and make your own: you wouldn't even have to pay royalties to the Roddenberrys!

    All this in mind, I feel that E should never have been made... During its initial stages of production, I said it was a bad idea that would demolish any sense of Treknical or Historical continuity...and I was right on the ball... Berman et al would've been better off simply continuing where V left off, maybe aboard another ship, and in this way we would at least have the opportunity of established characters re-appearing on the show from time to time... With E's run (what, another 5 years or so?), and the actors aging, the most we can hope for is another movie or two with Picard and friends given a few throwaway lines each...

    Even if the whole tech and continuity issue is thrown out, the writing on E really stinks... Never before have the characters been so cardboard (well, maybe on Voyager!) with such poor lines (if anyone cared, they'd dump the technobabble and substitute dialog to expand the characters and plug the plot holes)... The episodes are on the whole quite predictable and emphasize, more than anything else, space battles and effects work... Archer or Trip is captured by aliens, the E arrives, fights it out and rescues the character: wowee! Some episodes have been so boring they've put me to sleep (a rarity among Treks!)...
    Earlier Trek series like TOS and TNG featured more sophisticated plots, more developed characters, and above all else the average episode carried some meaning (but in those days, Real SF writers were hired or on-hand!)...

    I hate to say it, but it looks as though Star Trek at this stage should be cancelled and put out of its misery... Let it live on in the novels and the feature films... Berman and Braga should be given a restraining order to Stay The Hell Away From Trek! More responsible people are required to handle the franchise!
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well, *chuckle*, I see your point here. I certainly can see how a young person, steeped in the techno-ultra modern stylings of todays Sci-Fi and - heck, just the world around us... would feel this way. NO HIPPY CRAP! Heh heh. The world today is all very slick and ENT looking as it is! Certainly, I agree that the old styles of the TOS show might seem dated. Perfectly valid and certianly seems to have been a major point when it came to the designs we see on ENT.
    I think he ment the designs from TOS. The show did create the basic design themes that we have seen in various refits and new uniforms and tricorders, etc. It's stood up to 35+ years... you love this stuff! But, as a designer myself, I find ENT has created a visual language that is modern but bland and out of place from what we might have expected... since ENT is a prequel set 100 years before Kirkbabys' time.
    I believe he ment thier character... not thier look. I think the characterizations of the Vulcans and Klingons have been a bone of contention on other threads. It's a valid point... I personally have written about 2000 words about how the Vulcans have been 're-invisioned'... risky indeed.
    Well, I inferred from this that the sets are similair. The Engine room isn't too bad but sufferes from, well... being rather dull. Anti-Matter wasn't neccessary for the show and is too modern in it's feel. We didn't need it. It would have been fun, and given the show a 'new tech' feel if it used something else. Impulse is a good choice if you know anything about canon.
    Braga PROMISED this ... Kirk did this all the time. This is a completely valid point... heck, I'd start a whole thread on this alone.
    It's a design issue. I think your taking as this to mean that the 'conception' of technology in TOS is 'old fasioned'. Well, I'd disagree with that, but there ya go. I can see how the 'styles' wouldn't be what you would like to see. Fine. :) But the point here is, and what I took James Dixen to mean, is that ENT has a slick, bland, post-modern design that doesn't place it in any setting ... at all! The show gives us so many familiar cues and the exact same tech. Why would we believe this show takes place 100 years before Kirk? Or even Picard!!! You need not make it look like TOS, just give it a design that shows us that this Enterprise is not the safe 'with all the amenities' Enterprise of the past. We have 5 fricjin' ships to compare this one too... why does this one look even MORE modern than the movie ships? TNG? ENT is on par with Nemesis in my humble opinion. They make a good effort, I feel, with the monitors, phasers, communicators, uniforms, and such. But the ship itself and the tech that only took a season to get up and working (phasers, force fields, invisibility shields (ok, it was Trip.. but he should be working on that don't ya think? ;)), and the Universal Translator (Sorry Hoshi).

    Now, it could still be cool looking. Look at the ILM teams retro look for the new Star Wars movies. Weren't they cool looking? Now, I was hoping ENT would take a clue from ILM and do this... oops, Paramount doesn't work with ILM anymore... hmmmm. Contacting out? Some DESIGN firm... hmmm.

    Look... to be blunt, as a designer I look at the ENT bridge and it looks like the inside of a Tokyo bar. Really. It is just too slick and 'cool'. But once that sinks in, you're bored of it. Note that people haven't gotten bored of looking at the TOS designs after all these years. Don't knock it so quickly. :)
  16. factory

    factory Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Feb 1, 2003
    Going back to execs for a moment - here is the mindset of you average Viacom exec...

    I work for a Viacom company here in the UK. We recently laid people off because of cost cutting. Why? The company is making a lovely little profit, thank you very much... but Viacom want to see a ten to fifteen percent growth in profit, so ten to fifteen percent of our budget has been cut, including salary... Go figure...

    Oh, and after that ten to fifteen percent cut, the senior management team decided they needed a three day skiing trip to work out how to move forward - a skiing trip in France - when there are meeting rooms in our own building.

    Those are you execs, brain dead, business unaware, first rate morons.
  17. Koinek

    Koinek Vice Admiral Admiral

    Mar 26, 2002
    Chicago, IL
    Totally. I love VOY and ENT but TNG just seems lame at times.
  18. James Dixon

    James Dixon Rear Admiral Newbie

    Jan 4, 2001
    Westwood, NJ, USA
    That's just it, E's look Is too "slick"... I've said it before and I'll say it again: they've worked backwards from Voyager but not from TOS... They've got almost all the luxuries of the Voyager (see earlier messages up there!) and, ooh, I forgot to add another one to the list: they've even got a Universal Translator on NX-01! Granted, it's not as automated as on modern Treks but it Is there... Maybe I am too critical about a few nitpicks, like the lack of paper padds--but what's wrong with seeing some paper computer printouts? I mean, we still use those today, don't we? (At least I do!)...

    Everytime I see a phase pistol fired on E, I cringe... Here's why... The beam emitted has the exact same color and animated look as those from Federation phasers on TNG, DS9, and V... The SOUND EFFECTS are even the same as in those 3 series... The effects of the beam on the target are the same (we were told in "Broken Bow" that they have but 2 settings: Stun and Kill, it seems they can do a bit more than this)... Again, if this is a prequel to TOS wouldn't the beams be a bit more TOS-like? Uh, granted, they're phase pistols not phasers but the reasoning is the same... Why not make them Distinctly different from 24th Century phasers by altering the beam color/emission and certainly changing the sound efffects? It again all comes down to the overall feeling that TPTB DO NOT CARE, and never did... Oh, we have these stock phaser sound FX and visual animation on file here, we've used it in the 3 previous Trek series, so what the hell let's use it again... I bet they didn't watch TOS either...
  19. reno floyd

    reno floyd Vice Admiral Admiral

    Aug 18, 2001
    They'll never keep me down.
    Not Simon & Schuster by any chance?
  20. Gorn 2001

    Gorn 2001 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Aug 10, 2001
    Boulder, CO, USA
    I think you're being a little picky here. I think that, with the possible exception of the gym, the ship looks pretty functional. Archer certainly doesn't have the huge hotel room that Kirk enjoyed. The mess is open but not particularely luxurious. I think they nailed the ship pretty well.

    I don't mind the translator if for no other reason than it moves the story along. Think of how old and boring it gets working through a translator all the time. This has been constant through all of Trek though.

    My office does 90% of its work online at this point. I have no problem with electronic documents only, especially on a ship with limited resources and storage.

    I think you're really picking nits on the beam color and sound. TOS had a different look mostly because the phasers were poorly animated. They were thick, with a black line around them.

    Personally I would have preffered that they didn't use a beam weapon at all. But I expect that, in general, audiences think of beams on Trek. It's no biggie either way for me. I really don't think these decisions were made because the producers don't care about the show or want to in some way snub the fans.