Why don't Disco Klingons sing?

[Discofan]

They can barely open their mouths with all that rubber attached to their faces. Asking them to sing is being optimistic.

Well, if they can't sing they could at least hum.

 

[fireproof78]

T'Kuvma was a standard-issue religious fanatic, Kol was a standard-issue conniving megalomaniac, and Voq was a standard-issue useful idiot. L'rell might've had some potential for depth, but was whipsawed around too much in service of plot contrivances. We got nothing but brief glimpses of the "24 houses" and learned nothing whatsoever about them or their internecine political machinations. Most of the conversation among Klingons, all season long, was fairly perfunctory expository dialogue.

Honestly, the closest we got to any interesting insights into Klingon culture came from the visit to Q'onos in the (otherwise mostly disappointing) season finale. We see that they aren't xenophobic — they have diplomatic relations with non-Klingon societies, like the Orions, to the point of allowing an outpost on their homeworld. We see that they allow religious/political diversity — not everyone worships Kahless (either figuratively or literally), given that there's a recognizable cult of Molor whose adherents feel free to toast him openly in the street. We see that a lot of them use the term "Federation" as synonymous with "human"... and yet, despite being at war with the former, don't necessarily see the presence of the latter on their homeworld as a security threat.

Granted all this is still just scratching the surface and I don't know how much of it was really thought through, versus how much of it was just "let's do a Blade Runner-style street scene," but it at least has potential for more in-depth development. Unfortunately, I don't think we should hold our breaths waiting to see that happen.

When I think about alien races really explored in interesting depth on TV? I think about Babylon 5 and what it did with the Minbari and the Narn and the Centauri.

I felt like I got more about of the first two episodes about TOS Klingons than I ever did in TOS proper. So, I will completely disagree with you that we didn't get to see new facets on the Klingons.

Whether it was to the depth of personal desire will vary for audience member to audience member. But, the idea that they didn't explore them? That's rather nonsensical.

 

[Greg Cox]

Clearly the Klingons experienced a "Footloose" moment somewhere between TOS and TNG, when they realized that the teachings of Kahless did not actually forbid singing . . ...

 

[eschaton]

I disagree. TNG and DS9 were ultimately responsible for the approach of homogenizing / stereotyping entire species and cultures of billions. The values and behaviors of entire races were just "they're warriors" or "they're greedy capitalists" or "they're smart and logical" or whatever. The Klingons were the ultimate example of this. The Romulans and Ferengi were pretty damn close as well.

You're right that the Klingons weren't terribly well-defined beyond the allegorical level in TOS, and were begging to be fleshed out in TNG (especially with one among the regular cast). That's not to say that RDM's take did a particularly good job of fleshing them out, though. Instead, we got a version of Klingons that all but invited its own Flanderization, with endless lip-service rhetoric about *HONOR!* and seldom a hint that the culture involved anything beyond a giant warrior caste. (In a sense, it was actually less politically realistic than the aggressively colonizing imperial power depicted in TOS.) TNG/DS9 Klingons honestly just never much captured my interest.

I respectfully disagree. Although the Klingons were portrayed as having a cultural norm, they weren't portrayed as identical. An incomplete list:

• Worf himself was a very atypical Klingon, albeit in large part due to being raised by humans. He was in some senses the Klingon version of someone with autism-specrum disorder. He approached his culture as an outsider who read about the history and ideals and took things literally, rather than seriously. Meaning, he believed in honor to the letter, rather than understanding (as any would who grew up in the culture) that honor was just the public face you presented in order to further yourself and your house.
• Worf's son, Alexander, was even less of a Klingon by the time he reached adulthood. Despite ultimately deciding to serve the empire, he was terrible at being a warrior
• There was that TNG episode (Suspicions) with the female Klingon scientist.
• Although he was basically just an extra, DS9 had that fat Klingon chef, who certainly didn't seem to be a warrior.
• While Martok is probably the best example of a Klingon who both hews to his cultural stereotype and is also "good" he went through a period of post-traumatic stress after being held captive by the Jem'Haddar - being paralyzed by fear - a very un-Klingon element
• The same episode this takes place in (Soldiers of the Empire) also shows a wide variety of different Klingon "losers." One is superstitious and thinks the hsip is cursed. One is a troublemaker. One doesn't want to give up no matter what. They're all warriors, but not all the same.
• Both TNG and DS9 had depictions of individual Klingons who were primarily religious officials, not warriors (starting with the episode Rightful Heir).
• Rules of Engagement shows a Klingon lawyer
• In House of Quark, the antagonist (D'Ghor) is found to be a Klingon who is actually good with financial transactions, who is attempting to seize control of Grilka's land and property through legal maneuvers and financial transactions.
• Enterprise did its part as well. Episodes like Judgement showed the Klingon legal system. The whole augment/how the Klingon's lost their ridges arc showcased a Klingon doctor (Antaak) very prominently.

Of course, the overall picture we are given of the Klingons is of a race of warriors. But part of that is undoubtedly because we do not get to see much of "home life" on Qo'noS or any of the Klingon colonies, with essentially all Klingon ships being military vessels. To flip it around, if we followed only a Klingon Bird of Prey for seven years, we'd probably see little of humans aside from Starfleet officers, meaning we'd miss out on many of the shadier human characters we've been introduced to in the Trekverse.

I don't think that the level to which warriors are lauded in the Klingon Empire is that unbelievable - e.g., their culture still seems within the normal range for humanity. It is perhaps arguable that any race as seemingly un-intellectual and periodically disorganized as the Klingons would never manage to get their act together to develop warp-capable ships (let alone avoid nuking themselves back into the stone age) but Trek is full of such implausible outcomes. What matters from a story purpose is that a lot of work went into their mythology, cultural practices, song, cuisine, and other matters through the decades. In a very real way we know more about the Klingon Empire in the 24th century than we do about humanity.

 

[eschaton]

I actually do think DIS did a better job fleshing out the Klingons than TOS did, although it was a worse job than Berman-era Trek. The problem was they oversold it in the promotional interviews. In the end the "Klingon arc" was a stage play between four named characters and a host of interchangable extras. If you take away the set design and the like, it felt even more constrained by "small quadrant syndrome" than the Klingon political arcs involving Worf on TNG/DS9.

 

[Jayson1]

Maybe they are into whatever it is the Blue Man Group does or what is that music where people don't sing. They just bang on things like pots and pans.

Jason

 

[Discofan]

Maybe they are into whatever it is the Blue Man Group does or what is that music where people don't sing. They just bang on things like pots and pans.

Jason

During the Marriage of Jadzia and Worf we saw that the Klingon were very much into drums and tam-tams.

 

[Prax]

Why don't they sing?

Cut them some slack. They can barely talk.

 

[The Wormhole]

Why don't the humans sing?

You're right! A duet is needed as Michael and Stamets sing Beyond Antares together.

 

[Refuge]

What torture reading singing Discovery Klingon subtitles.

 

[Vger23]

You're right! A duet is needed as Michael and Stamets sing Beyond Antares together.

Oh man...not "Beyond Antares!"

 

[Vger23]

What torture reading singing Discovery Klingon subtitles.

Yeah...but what if they had the little musical ball that bounces over them? That would be pretty sweet...admit it!

 

[Refuge]

Yeah...but what if they had the little musical ball that bounces over them? That would be pretty sweet...admit it!

Yeah, you're right, it would be fun

 

[Discofan]

The same Klingon song was sung in "The Way Of The Warrior" By Worf and his father's friend and in "Barge Of the Dead" by the Doctor and Seven, which is a remarkable feat of consistency between two different series!
It would be outstanding if they could sing it in Discovery as well.

 

[Tuskin38]

That song was also kind of referenced in DSC when Voq/Tyler tells Michael and Georgiou about Molor, as the lyrics tell that story.

Specifically the bit about the battle being near the River Skral comes from the song

 

[fireproof78]

I respectfully disagree. Although the Klingons were portrayed as having a cultural norm, they weren't portrayed as identical. An incomplete list:

• Worf himself was a very atypical Klingon, albeit in large part due to being raised by humans. He was in some senses the Klingon version of someone with autism-specrum disorder. He approached his culture as an outsider who read about the history and ideals and took things literally, rather than seriously. Meaning, he believed in honor to the letter, rather than understanding (as any would who grew up in the culture) that honor was just the public face you presented in order to further yourself and your house.
• Worf's son, Alexander, was even less of a Klingon by the time he reached adulthood. Despite ultimately deciding to serve the empire, he was terrible at being a warrior
• There was that TNG episode (Suspicions) with the female Klingon scientist.
• Although he was basically just an extra, DS9 had that fat Klingon chef, who certainly didn't seem to be a warrior.
• While Martok is probably the best example of a Klingon who both hews to his cultural stereotype and is also "good" he went through a period of post-traumatic stress after being held captive by the Jem'Haddar - being paralyzed by fear - a very un-Klingon element
• The same episode this takes place in (Soldiers of the Empire) also shows a wide variety of different Klingon "losers." One is superstitious and thinks the hsip is cursed. One is a troublemaker. One doesn't want to give up no matter what. They're all warriors, but not all the same.
• Both TNG and DS9 had depictions of individual Klingons who were primarily religious officials, not warriors (starting with the episode Rightful Heir).
• Rules of Engagement shows a Klingon lawyer
• In House of Quark, the antagonist (D'Ghor) is found to be a Klingon who is actually good with financial transactions, who is attempting to seize control of Grilka's land and property through legal maneuvers and financial transactions.
• Enterprise did its part as well. Episodes like Judgement showed the Klingon legal system. The whole augment/how the Klingon's lost their ridges arc showcased a Klingon doctor (Antaak) very prominently.

Of course, the overall picture we are given of the Klingons is of a race of warriors. But part of that is undoubtedly because we do not get to see much of "home life" on Qo'noS or any of the Klingon colonies, with essentially all Klingon ships being military vessels. To flip it around, if we followed only a Klingon Bird of Prey for seven years, we'd probably see little of humans aside from Starfleet officers, meaning we'd miss out on many of the shadier human characters we've been introduced to in the Trekverse.

I don't think that the level to which warriors are lauded in the Klingon Empire is that unbelievable - e.g., their culture still seems within the normal range for humanity. It is perhaps arguable that any race as seemingly un-intellectual and periodically disorganized as the Klingons would never manage to get their act together to develop warp-capable ships (let alone avoid nuking themselves back into the stone age) but Trek is full of such implausible outcomes. What matters from a story purpose is that a lot of work went into their mythology, cultural practices, song, cuisine, and other matters through the decades. In a very real way we know more about the Klingon Empire in the 24th century than we do about humanity.

While I largely agree, my great lament is that the exceptions you list, especially Alexander, are either shamed for not being a warrior, or they still treat life as a type of combat. ENT actually did better in showcasing more than a warrior's life.

But, your points are well taken, which is why I'm enjoying DISCO. Yeah, they oversold it-so what? Apparently expectations were raised so high as to not appreciate anything that was done in DISCO?

ETA: To the OP, why don't humans sing?

 

[eschaton]

While I largely agree, my great lament is that the exceptions you list, especially Alexander, are either shamed for not being a warrior, or they still treat life as a type of combat. ENT actually did better in showcasing more than a warrior's life.

It's not like the Federation doesn't have cultural norms as well though. If you're born as a human in the Federation, and decide that you really want to own slaves, be it for sexual purposes or otherwise, you're going to get shunned, even if you just talk about it and don't go through with it. Everyone is socialized within the Federation to believe in equal rights for all sentients - it is dogma. Although not as extreme, if you decide that the accumulation of material wealth is a goal, you're similarly going to be looked down upon to some degree, because the Federation has moved past such "petty concerns."

My point is, while the Klingons became a Planet of Hats, it's not like the Federation doesn't wear a hat of its own. It's just a hat that seems transparent to us, because it closely matches some elements of modern-day western social norms.

 

[fireproof78]

It's not like the Federation doesn't have cultural norms as well though. If you're born as a human in the Federation, and decide that you really want to own slaves, be it for sexual purposes or otherwise, you're going to get shunned, even if you just talk about it and don't go through with it. Everyone is socialized within the Federation to believe in equal rights for all sentients - it is dogma. Although not as extreme, if you decide that the accumulation of material wealth is a goal, you're similarly going to be looked down upon to some degree, because the Federation has moved past such "petty concerns."

My point is, while the Klingons became a Planet of Hats, it's not like the Federation doesn't wear a hat of its own. It's just a hat that seems transparent to us, because it closely matches some elements of modern-day western social norms.

You are correct in that regard, but we have seen humans who break free of that "Planet of Hats" with little consequence or commentary, while Klingons have largely embraced the warrior trope, head butting, in fighting, drinking and all, with those few outliers still being outliers.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Everyone is socialized within the Federation to believe in equal rights for all sentients - it is dogma.

It's not just dogma. It happens to be CORRECT.

It is an absolute right, which cannot in any sense be refuted or denied. There is, literally, no possible opposition.

 

[eschaton]

It's not just dogma. It happens to be CORRECT.

It is an absolute right, which cannot in any sense be refuted or denied. There is, literally, no possible opposition.

Do I agree? Sure. But that's because it meets with my moral priors. Considering I'm not a theist, I don't believe morality exists anywhere independent from the brains of humans (or sentients in general, in theory). Any defense I give of universal human rights is fundamentally a rationalization to defend things which make moral sense because of the cultural background I grew up within. Even if you can logically prove that other sentient beings exist, and they all have identical potential aptitudes and abilities, it's still a leap that requires a moral judgement to conclude that everyone should be treated the same way.

Similarly, a Klingon could make a moral judgement about the value of honor and glory in battle above and beyond universal rights. Given there is no way to define morality objectively, we can always claim that our morality is better, but we have no way of proving it.