Why doesn't the scifi community worry about me?

[JanewayRulz!]

I read with interest the blog about why Voyager/Janeway was not successful, and was struck by several things.

One, was that supposedly all men hate the show. Struck, I say, because in my experience the Trek community I was associated with was full of heterosexual married males who loved Voyager. How do I know? Because we talked the show into the ground every thursday, because we shared tapes of shows back and forth when someone missed an ep. Because one grateful wife gave me my first star trek ornament (Romulan warbird) as a thankyou for making her husband livable with a constant supply of Voyager tapes. Did the males like it even more after Seven arrived? Is Janeway a goddess among women?

Two, regarding the fear that young men didn't like Voyager... why doesn't the scifi community "worry" as much about whether or not "I" watch their TV show? I'm pretty damned sure that I've purchased more cars in the last 15 years than any under 25 male. I'm sure I travel and spend more than any pubescent male. I'm sure I've purchased as many scifi dvds' and "my share" of video games over the intervening years... so how come no-one worried when I stopped watching "Enterprise", or "Andromeda"?

Three, with apologies to Jacqueline's blog, I don't want to know after the first 5 episodes of a TV show, what's going to happen 170 eps later! Even BSG, a show that wormed its way into my heart after its first post miniseries episode, didn't know what was going to happen 4 years later. Hell, after the first 5 eps of BSG, not only did we not know WHO the final five were... we didn't even know to ask "if" they were! What we DO know, after the first 5 eps of Voyager, is that they are in an impossible situation, and it will not be resolved without the intervention of an outside source, be that Q, Kes, The BORG, or deux ex machine of one type or another. How do we know this? Because they are 75000 freaking light years from home, and try as she may, Torres "cannae change the laws of physics." The Voyager can only go "so fast" and no faster. There!

Four, should we bring back Janeway in another Universe that will give us everything (J/C) denied in the first go round?

No.

I will not have Janeway's history be rewritten for that reason only, and I speak as a rabid J/Cer. I would rather keep her flawed relationships with Chakotay, Torres, Seven, Tom, The EMH, Harry and Neelix than find those stories merely forgotten because a new producer rewrote trek history and gave a Romulan Annorax a feature film role.

Again I will remind TPTB that I do buy cars, and computers and TVs and travel and fund my pension with bonds and mutual funds... in short I'm a freaking advertiser's dream and maybe they should wonder what they can do to lure me back to broadcast television.

Think about it.

In the last month I've watched more hours of Xena circa 1995-2001 on DVD (w/o commercial breaks) than I have watched on TV in the last 4 months.

Somebody should be worried about something more than the 14-24 yearolds with y chromosomes.

Five. Janeway/Mulgrew captured me in the pilot ep of Voyager and NEVER let me go, despite whatever inconsitencies others have seen in her writing and or portrayal. Xena/Lawless has nearly succeeded as well. If TPTB can add 2+2, perhaps they will see that women will respond to strong women role models as well as men respond to strong male role models. And if they're lucky, very lucky, they will see both sexes fall over for their stars. Hercules Legendary Journeys was such a hit, and it spun off Xena. According to at least one book I've checked out on the subject, the strong female led series became much higher rated than the male series ever did.

You'd think "someone" would notice.

I think I'll go home and pop a dvd into the player, and enjoy the golden age of TV, when you couldn't turn switch a station without finding a woman worth my time to watch on TV.

 

[Shatnertage]

What's the blog you're talking about? Link?

 

[Gaith]

If TPTB of everything felt and thought like we Trekkers do.. the world would be a very different, and very better place.

"Sometimes, Number One, you just have to bow to the absurd." - Picard

so how come no-one worried when I stopped watching "Enterprise"

They did worry; they worried so much that they canceled the show.

 

[T.D. Possum]

Two, regarding the fear that young men didn't like Voyager... why doesn't the scifi community "worry" as much about whether or not "I" watch their TV show? I'm pretty damned sure that I've purchased more cars in the last 15 years than any under 25 male. I'm sure I travel and spend more than any pubescent male. I'm sure I've purchased as many scifi dvds' and "my share" of video games over the intervening years... so how come no-one worried when I stopped watching "Enterprise", or "Andromeda"?

J'Rulz, m'dear - I just gave you a virtual high five.

Shatnertage, here's the link to the thread where the blog entry was shared.

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=129977

 

[Brit]

There is a huge mind set among the producers of movies and television and the editors and publishers of books that women do not read science fiction and men do not read romance. It is of course Hogwash, but there are those of us that are trying to change that mindset.

Those people at a high level thought that to be a success, Voyager had to attract fifteen year old boys, and they so thoroughly believed it that they put blinders on themselves and refused to see Voyager's real audience.

I love Jacqueline Lichtenberg, and have been a fan of hers since I bought and read "Star Trek Lives" in the seventies, she has taught me more about writing than everyone else put together, but like you I want Janeway back in the real Trek Universe with Chakotay and I want the rest of Voyager's crew back too.

As much as I love J/C, I love all the characters of Voyager and I hate the splitting of those characters away from Voyager almost as much as I hate Janeway being dead, I even hate that Admiral Paris was killed in Trek literature. I want it back.

To JanewayRulz!, The scifi community (at least those in charge of what gets shown or published) do not believe you exist. They also do not believe I exist either and I've been reading science fiction since around 1960. Like I said it's Hogwash.

Brit

 

[F. King Daniel]

I too was annoyed by the inane generalization that all men hate Janeway.

Oh, and for anyone interested...

Spoiler: J/C in the Trek novels

In the novel Full Circle, Janeway slept with Chakotay shortly before her death.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Oh, and for anyone interested...

Spoiler: J/C in the Trek novels

In the novel Full Circle, Janeway slept with Chakotay shortly before her death.

Jeez, he was that bad?

 

[Deckerd]

Don't worry iguana, it's not canon.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^But there is no more Voyager canon, and there isn't gonna be. Hence the upset in the first place over her death.

 

[kimc]

Again I will remind TPTB that I do buy cars, and computers and TVs and travel and fund my pension with bonds and mutual funds... in short I'm a freaking advertiser's dream and maybe they should wonder what they can do to lure me back to broadcast television.

I hear you! I recently bought the entire dvd series "Boston Legal" based on liking a few episodes I watched with some friends. I adopted a rescue dog with issues and now "The Dog Whisperer" is getting cash from me. If anyone, anywhere came out with a well-written book featuring a living Janeway I'd be dropping the cash for that too.

I'm trying to look at the positive side though. Since Trek doesn't want my money I have more cash to spend on sailing vacations and good shoes. Since broadcast television has nothing that interests me I have more time to workout regularly and make homemade soup. Thank goodness for silver linings!

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Two, regarding the fear that young men didn't like Voyager... why doesn't the scifi community "worry" as much about whether or not "I" watch their TV show? I'm pretty damned sure that I've purchased more cars in the last 15 years than any under 25 male. I'm sure I travel and spend more than any pubescent male. I'm sure I've purchased as many scifi dvds' and "my share" of video games over the intervening years... so how come no-one worried when I stopped watching "Enterprise", or "Andromeda"?

J'Rulz, m'dear - I just gave you a virtual high five.

Shatnertage, here's the link to the thread where the blog entry was shared.

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=129977

Right back at ya, girlfriend!

 

[Shatnertage]

Thanks for the link, AMG. I had read through some of that blog post but didn't get to the good stuff.

I'd take issue with Jaqueline's take that "Kirk had relationships" while Janeway didn't. Janeway had a fiancee and a dog back home, which suggests that she's a person capable of giving and receiving affection.

It was specifically said that Kirk was "married to the Enterprise," I don't know how many times. He had a few seductions, yes, but he didn't seem to have any "relationships." If you wanted to be unkind, you could say that he was an emotional cripple who used his workaholism as an excuse to shut himself off from the possibility of a real relationship.

So you see the recipe for how to kill a series the higher ups in the network hate.

Now that's just ridiculous. I really doubt that there was a "Voyager conspiracy" to destroy the show. That just doesn't make sense. What network executive's going to want a show to fail under his/her watch? Why bother investing substantially in sets, actors' contracts, etc if you don't want the show to succeed? And they did give it seven years.

 

[vas2009]

I will not have Janeway's history be rewritten for that reason only, and I speak as a rabid J/Cer. I would rather keep her flawed relationships with Chakotay, Torres, Seven, Tom, The EMH, Harry and Neelix than find those stories merely forgotten because a new producer rewrote trek history and gave a Romulan Annorax a feature film role.

Again I will remind TPTB that I do buy cars, and computers and TVs and travel and fund my pension with bonds and mutual funds... in short I'm a freaking advertiser's dream and maybe they should wonder what they can do to lure me back to broadcast television.



Somebody should be worried about something more than the 14-24 yearolds with y chromosomes.

Five. Janeway/Mulgrew captured me in the pilot ep of Voyager and NEVER let me go, despite whatever inconsitencies others have seen in her writing and or portrayal.

I think I'll go home and pop a dvd into the player, and enjoy the golden age of TV, when you couldn't turn switch a station without finding a woman worth my time to watch on TV.

I recently have passed on Voyager to a curious friend and after every season she and I discuss the episodes as I pass on the new set of discs. She's always amazed at the details I remember. I dumped cable all together and entertain myself with The X-files and Star Trek.

As for rewriting Janeway no way. I loved her character for all that it was and she can not be recreated. I want her back the way she was before the Q took her. I don't care what bad scifi they have to write to make it so. I almost dumped ST after I read that book I was convinced they would bring her back in the next one. No luck. I was so mad I payed money for it.

The blog in discussion was interesting to read. I didn't agree with all of it. I never noticed all of these "flaws" in her character or the lack of "relationships" among the crew, I just except these comments as others opinions, I believe we all have flaws and can be inconsistant "moody" Captain Janeway to me is a complicated woman with an unbelievable amount of responsibilities and she wasn't given enough credit. She adapted to each circumstance as needed. What's wrong with that? I did agree with, Mulgrew made Janeway. No one else could have done it better than her. I am forever greatful for her contribution to Star Trek.

My hats off to you J'Rulz for your comments. There are a lot of women interested in Scifi my Grandma was one of them... oh yes and my 21 y/o BF (years ago) introduced me to Voyager he was a big Janeway fan. My husband (different guy) can't understand what isn't to like about her and regards her as "The Best" and I agree.

 

[firecrackerrrr]

I actually worked in PR for a major film production company in LA (still do on occasion but I'm a full time student again) and trust me, as much as I feel ya there, they do have a point. The unfortunate truth is that the majority of the viewers are/were male. For every lady that showed up at the comic con promos and events for ST there'd be 10 more guys. It sucks and I'm exactly like you. I spend insane amounts of time and money on Star Trek and BSG and scifi in general. But when they mention things like that in the press, they unfortunately only touch on the one majority in the statistic.

I'd also like to point out that TV really isn't so bad these days. If you are able to ignore the reality shows of course. But the last ten years gave us: BSG, Six Feet Under, Dexter, Sopranos, True Blood (not my cup of tea since I'm sick of Vampires but I will say that the writing is excellent), Supernatural, Fringe and I would HIGHLY recommend you give The Walking Dead a shot if you're into a good zombie story. It premieres on Halloween and it's a new show. I saw the first couple of episodes and it's fantastic. So while I do miss the Voyager and Xena and Buffy and X-Files days, I really think there's still some gems out there. You just gotta give it a shot.

I WILL say though that up until two years ago I was refusing to watch "today's TV" and only watched what I grew up with. BSG was the first show to pull me in, then I watched Supernatural, then I gave Dexter a shot and fell in love which led me to Six Feet Under which broke my heart all three times that I've watched the show back to back, and then Sopranos won me over - oh yes and my futile hate for sitcoms was beaten with a stick when I stumbled across the Big Bang Theory. See, I'm a physics student now (well I'm continuing my studies that I started in my late teens) and as embarrassing as some of the jokes are, I know SO many people who are like quite a few characters on that show.

I still agree that the majority of TV shows suck these days. But at some point in the last few years, SOME TV shows became better than most feature films. That right there tells you what a sad state the film industry is in these days.

 

[Brit]

I actually worked in PR for a major film production company in LA (still do on occasion but I'm a full time student again) and trust me, as much as I feel ya there, they do have a point. The unfortunate truth is that the majority of the viewers are/were male. For every lady that showed up at the comic con promos and events for ST there'd be 10 more guys. It sucks and I'm exactly like you. I spend insane amounts of time and money on Star Trek and BSG and scifi in general. But when they mention things like that in the press, they unfortunately only touch on the one majority in the statistic.

And this is the mindset I am talking about, ask yourself is the demographic male because only males like science fiction or is the demographic male because the producers of film and the publishers of books are not producing material that would attract female viewers.

It's easy to say that the male demographic is the majority because it has been for years but in truth just as many women would watch science fiction movies or read just as many books as males if the movies and books appealed to them. It's for sure that if you are only catering to a certain segment of the population that is the only one you will reach.

I personally think James Cameron's "Avatar" proved this point because it did appeal to a very broad demographic and not just the perceived audience for Science Fiction films. There is a growing group of female writers that are also proving that women read and enjoy Science Fiction novels too, but they had to go around the traditional publishing houses to be able to reach a female audience.

Brit

 

[firecrackerrrr]

I actually worked in PR for a major film production company in LA (still do on occasion but I'm a full time student again) and trust me, as much as I feel ya there, they do have a point. The unfortunate truth is that the majority of the viewers are/were male. For every lady that showed up at the comic con promos and events for ST there'd be 10 more guys. It sucks and I'm exactly like you. I spend insane amounts of time and money on Star Trek and BSG and scifi in general. But when they mention things like that in the press, they unfortunately only touch on the one majority in the statistic.

And this is the mindset I am talking about, ask yourself is the demographic male because only males like science fiction or is the demographic male because the producers of film and the publishers of books are not producing material that would attract female viewers.

It's easy to say that the male demographic is the majority because it has been for years but in truth just as many women would watch science fiction movies or read just as many books as males if the movies and books appealed to them. It's for sure that if you are only catering to a certain segment of the population that is the only one you will reach.

I personally think James Cameron's "Avatar" proved this point because it did appeal to a very broad demographic and not just the perceived audience for Science Fiction films. There is a growing group of female writers that are also proving that women read and enjoy Science Fiction novels too, but they had to go around the traditional publishing houses to be able to reach a female audience.

Brit

I completely agree with you. Trust me, I've been just as frustrated at certain issues when it comes to for example merchandising. I recently looked into getting a Voyager uniform (Janeway, specifically) - every single costume company that carries Star Trek uniforms has informed me that they only have the green/blue and yellow uniforms for women and the red one is only for males in L, XL and XXL sizes. I asked if they're simply out of stock and they said that it's always been this way for Voyager. I again asked if he's sure because, Voyager specifically has a female Captain and the guy on the phone laughed and said "Yup, I'm pretty positive. I've been selling these for years." - suffice to say I've decided to make my own kick-ass Janeway costume and it's coming along great and will probably end up looking better than the official merchandise (it's fitted to my proportions, it's better material and I can make adjustments)

It's frustrating as hell though. The data always showed that the majority of fans for the scifi shows we were doing PR for have been male. On one hand I don't understand why as I'm a fan of some of those shows and I'm female. On the other hand, I agree that something can be done to make it more appealing to women. But I always wondered if they did make it more appealing to the average female, would I still be interested in it? I don't know if this will come off wrong, I hope not. But I like my Trek and my BSG and my Supernatural etc etc the way it is. Doesn't make me feel any better about the poor advertising, the merchandising and the obviousness of who the target audience is - a majority I happen to not belong to apparently. So while I understand the business aspect of it, I'll admit once in a while it bugs me too. :/

 

[T.D. Possum]

But I always wondered if they did make it more appealing to the average female, would I still be interested in it?

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't. I feel a little alarmed just trying to picture what sort of shows or movies might be produced under such a scheme. I'd think rather just put up with being in the overlooked demographic.

 

[Gaith]

I recently looked into getting a Voyager uniform (Janeway, specifically) - every single costume company that carries Star Trek uniforms has informed me that they only have the green/blue and yellow uniforms for women and the red one is only for males in L, XL and XXL sizes. I asked if they're simply out of stock and they said that it's always been this way for Voyager. I again asked if he's sure because, Voyager specifically has a female Captain and the guy on the phone laughed and said "Yup, I'm pretty positive. I've been selling these for years."

Now that ain't right.

 

[Brit]

But I always wondered if they did make it more appealing to the average female, would I still be interested in it? I don't know if this will come off wrong, I hope not. But I like my Trek and my BSG and my Supernatural etc etc the way it is. Doesn't make me feel any better about the poor advertising, the merchandising and the obviousness of who the target audience is - a majority I happen to not belong to apparently. So while I understand the business aspect of it, I'll admit once in a while it bugs me too. :/

I think given the chance you might find things you would like, for instance I'd recommend anything written by Linnea Sinclair to women that like science fiction and I would highly recommend her "Games of Command." I have no idea if you would like to read her books or not, but I really liked them. It is after all a matter of taste. A lot of people like Rowena Cherry's books too but personally they just don't hold my attention. Not everyone likes everything, but I do think that you might find you liked some of the newer female written stuff.

LOL, I can however, tell you how to get around the uniform thing and that is find someone who sews and buy the patterns (they are available on the internet), I have the female Voyager ones and the Original Series ones (those I have had since before any of the movies were made.) I sew, so my daughter has a Captain Janeway uniform in the right colors.

Brit

 

[firecrackerrrr]

But I always wondered if they did make it more appealing to the average female, would I still be interested in it? I don't know if this will come off wrong, I hope not. But I like my Trek and my BSG and my Supernatural etc etc the way it is. Doesn't make me feel any better about the poor advertising, the merchandising and the obviousness of who the target audience is - a majority I happen to not belong to apparently. So while I understand the business aspect of it, I'll admit once in a while it bugs me too. :/

I think given the chance you might find things you would like, for instance I'd recommend anything written by Linnea Sinclair to women that like science fiction and I would highly recommend her "Games of Command." I have no idea if you would like to read her books or not, but I really liked them. It is after all a matter of taste. A lot of people like Rowena Cherry's books too but personally they just don't hold my attention. Not everyone likes everything, but I do think that you might find you liked some of the newer female written stuff.

LOL, I can however, tell you how to get around the uniform thing and that is find someone who sews and buy the patterns (they are available on the internet), I have the female Voyager ones and the Original Series ones (those I have had since before any of the movies were made.) I sew, so my daughter has a Captain Janeway uniform in the right colors.

Brit

Oh as I mentioned, I AM making my own uniform due to the fact that I couldn't find one I can order and/or buy in store. And I honestly think it looks amazing so far and that it'll turn out better than if I had bought an official one, had one existed. But judging by those other ones that ARE available, quality doesn't seem to be too important to them.

And thank you for the recommendations. I am an avid book reader and have been reading at least 5 books per month since childhood so I appreciate these. Might be good for me for a change since the last (at least) 10 books have been all about quantum mechanics. I've been looking forward to finding something good in scifi and fiction in general